SkimFisher
Contributor
WTH are you guys talking about? 
I'll just watch....
I'll just watch....
Why should I support my LDS?
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Deep South Divers
Contributor
Okay, but the failure of the CO2 scrubbers on a Trident submarine won't result in anyone dying, either... That is, they've got a backup plan in case one of the scrubbers fails.
...Yet it's still considered "life support" by the military and all who depend on it to live.
Conversely, a diver four miles back into an underwater cave may consider his LIGHT as a part of his life support system. This is true to such a degree that most cave divers dive with two or three lights on each diver - double and triple redundancy!
...So at what point does a handheld undewater flashlight become "life support?"
I have known some divers, diving in caves, who have dived in areas that they clearly could not access simply by swimming there. In those cases, I can assure you that the proper function of the scooter that brought him there (and would need to bring him out) is critical. Thus, even the scooter can be considered "life support." You'd feel the same way, miles back into a cave, knowing that you've got to be out, say, within an hour.
Yet, a scooter is nothing but a fun toy to the kids playing with one in a pool. If it fails, nobody dies.
...So how do we define this? Is this truly a matter of criticality?
...And once we decide on that exact point, how do we define when it's okay to use certain gear? Can we use a Mares HUB in a cave? Split fins in a wreck off of NJ? A Sea Doo scooter in a cenote in Mexico?
I mean, where is the limitation, and do we have to define every piece of gear and it's limitations?
...Yet it's still considered "life support" by the military and all who depend on it to live.
Conversely, a diver four miles back into an underwater cave may consider his LIGHT as a part of his life support system. This is true to such a degree that most cave divers dive with two or three lights on each diver - double and triple redundancy!
...So at what point does a handheld undewater flashlight become "life support?"
I have known some divers, diving in caves, who have dived in areas that they clearly could not access simply by swimming there. In those cases, I can assure you that the proper function of the scooter that brought him there (and would need to bring him out) is critical. Thus, even the scooter can be considered "life support." You'd feel the same way, miles back into a cave, knowing that you've got to be out, say, within an hour.
Yet, a scooter is nothing but a fun toy to the kids playing with one in a pool. If it fails, nobody dies.
...So how do we define this? Is this truly a matter of criticality?
...And once we decide on that exact point, how do we define when it's okay to use certain gear? Can we use a Mares HUB in a cave? Split fins in a wreck off of NJ? A Sea Doo scooter in a cenote in Mexico?
I mean, where is the limitation, and do we have to define every piece of gear and it's limitations?
Deep South Divers
Contributor
WTH are you guys talking about?
I'll just watch....
LOL...
Just discussing whether or not scuba gear is "life support" or not.
What's your take on it?
Sas
Contributor
Pretty much. I think if there is no way to survive a dive in the event of a piece of equipment failing, then it is life support. As I said in an earlier post there are extreme dives that are totally dependent on equipment, but 99.999999% of divers do not do those dives.
Sorry, I don't see how this is relevent. Perhaps you could expand more on it?
No, not at all. My main issue is that LDSs can use the "life support" scare tactic when it is unwarranted. I don't see scuba equipment as life support (though it does allow me to go into environments where I could not go without it, but that does not mean I cannot get out of them when something fails) as I think that if equipment fails in recreational diving it should not result in the death of a diver. It is their response to equipment failure, that determines if they will survive or not.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
...Then how do you explain that a CO2 scrubber in a military submarine is clearly "life support," but if it fails, nobody dies?
Would you not consider a CO2 scrubber on a military submarine "life support?"
What about a hospital calling an oxygen tent "life support?" Or a dialysis machine or a heart monitor? Clearly, those things are considered "life support," but if one fails, they just wheel it away and replace it with another - that is, they're redundant, so that nobody dies.
Does that mean that these machines aren't "life support?" If they're not "life support," then what are they - conveniences?
Would you not consider a CO2 scrubber on a military submarine "life support?"
What about a hospital calling an oxygen tent "life support?" Or a dialysis machine or a heart monitor? Clearly, those things are considered "life support," but if one fails, they just wheel it away and replace it with another - that is, they're redundant, so that nobody dies.
Does that mean that these machines aren't "life support?" If they're not "life support," then what are they - conveniences?
Sas
Contributor
Deep South Divers, I already said I would not argue semantics, which is what this is turning into. I have already given a number of times, my reasons for why I do not consider scuba diving "life support" and don't feel the need to say it again.
Your examples are not analogous to scuba diving, so are irrelevant imho.
Your examples are not analogous to scuba diving, so are irrelevant imho.
SkimFisher
Contributor
LOL...
Just discussing whether or not scuba gear is "life support" or not.
What's your take on it?
Oh, no. I'm not falling for that.
I'm just trying to find the segway from "Should I support my LDS?" to "defining Life Support" :admingreet:
R
redacted
Guest
Oh, no. I'm not falling for that.
I'm just trying to find the segway from "Should I support my LDS?" to "defining Life Support" :admingreet:
The Segway: It is life support. You don't want to buy this from the cheapest bidder whom you don't even know and who live on the other side of the world. You must buy this from the local dealer who only has you safety and best interests at heart. Unfortunately, such concern and convenience don't come cheaply, you know the back room and lights and all; but you don't mind because how much is your life worth.
Paladin
Contributor
Who is your LDS
Huntington Sport and Scuba, Charlie Carroll, Proprieter. His shop isn't big or fancy (or even neat) but you'll get good service at a reasonable price.
Scubagolf
Contributor
For me, it is a real leap of faith to think that just because a shop happens to be nearby and you get to know the proprietor that he/she has YOUR safety and best interests at heart.
Back to the OP's original question: If you think you can get better service/support by paying a premium to your LDS than it may be in your best interest to buy equipment there rather than elsewhere. When I first bought my equipment 7 years ago, no LDS in my area carried Zeagle equipment which I decided to buy based in large part on recommendations on SB. (Thanks to all for that!) I bought my major gear from ScubaToys and then a couple years later my wife's gear (Zeagle Zena,etc.) and never looked back. I do sprinkle some dollars with my LDS for misc. stuff.
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