Why should I support my LDS?

[Web Monkey]

OK we are back on track, nice little segway.

All very well and I agree with everything you said but this is not a perfect world and to remain competitive dive shops have reduced training fees and pay their instructors like trained monkeys and let's face it PADI is huge marketing machine and that is what it is all about sales. OW is the first opportunity to set the hook and if they do not certify them they may be gone forever and unfortunately they are not going to let that happen.

What you are saying is the way it should be but diving sold out chasing the dollar and using the "average new diver only lasts three years and never dives again but it's constantly renewable" as a business model, people quite happily spend loads of money for golf coaches and skiing for instance but shop the **** out of dive stores for training and equipment.

Training can only be as bad as the instructors are willing allow, and anybody involved in SCUBA training has the power to fix their little slice of the pie.

Terry

 

[TechBlue]

Training can only be as bad as the instructors are willing allow, and anybody involved in SCUBA training has the power to fix their little slice of the pie.

Terry

Yes true, but many take the easy road for the pitiful job security and the students are none the wiser. I had the same conversation with a local instructor here where the owner dictated everything and he was shocked at the cookie cutter training and how it was virtually impossible not to get certified, he chose not to continue to work for the shop but they churn out hundreds of students every summer.

Another reason to support your LDS http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/akona/320259-poor-customer-service.html

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Yes true, but many take the easy road for the pitiful job security and the students are none the wiser. I had the same conversation with a local instructor here where the owner dictated everything and he was shocked at the cookie cutter training and how it was virtually impossible not to get certified, he chose not to work for the shop but they churn out hundreds of students every summer.

Another reason to support your LDS http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/akona/320259-poor-customer-service.html

You mean like instructors overweighting students so they don't have to deal with them not being able to get down to do their skills planted on the bottom on their knees.
They overweight them to the point that they require their BC's to be half full just to keep them on the surface. The when they dump their air they drop like a rock and when they start getting close to the bottom they land on the inflator full blast to put on the brakes before they crash the bottom. Oh wait, I'm getting ahead of open water class now, that's in AOW class. In open water they crash the bottom, sorry I forgot.

Then they tell them not to be an elevator diver.

 

[TechBlue]

Lifted from a SB thread CDNN :: Unsafe at any Depth - PADI Scuba Diver rather than addressing the issues as to why divers don't stay with the sport, first they lowered the minimum age to 10 to grab another slice and now they just reduce the standards and training to the barest minimum, so what are we talking about?

 

[Thalassamania]

The point with the CESA was not that itis impossible, but rather that an average, newer, AOW diver (as can be found in a "Basic Scuba Discussion" forum) attempting one from 100' from an empty lung is likely going to be a panic case and head up WAAAY to fast for their own good. having started at the bottom empty, they are more likely to breath hold as they do come up. AGE was not my intent but rather state of mind leading to panic leading to poor decision. At that point either AGE could be possible or more likely with near NDL loading, they may find their skin tingling after sprinting to the roof.

I can only speak for myself and the divers that I train and I restate, "IT IS NOT A PROBLEM." If it is a problem for you, for divers that you train or divers that you know you should address the failings in the diver training schemes, 'cause it's not big deal (or at least shouldn't be).

as for your octo getting caught... How many NEWER divers have you seen with their octo stuffed into a "ball" style holder (kindly sold to them by their friendly LDS)??

See above.

Have you never seen one escape during a dive?? Have you never guided some poor SOB that you had to go over to several times during a dive and kindly STOW THEIR OCTO FOR THEM SO IT STOPS DRAGGING ALONG THE REEF?? let your mind wander waaay back, back when you were young and interacted with strokes on a daily basis... like when you are dealing with TOURISTS!!!!

Actually, I have never seen one escape during a dive. I have never dove with anyone who used one. When I let my mind wander back to when I was young well ... there were no auxiliaries and there were no dive tourists.

see above...something about tourists. About the only ones I have seen LESS THAN arms length away was when we had an all gay charter and they got to hold hands.

See my first paragraph, above.

yeah and i guess you missed where MY point was that despite being technically a life support system, that tag is misused in order to increase the value in an consumers eyes, again not a practice I am fond of either. Face it though, shady salesmen tend to exist in this world, and at all levels...

There are some things are more indicative of that phenomena than others, Primary, any saying, "But it's life support ... aren't you (or your wife, or kid) worth it?" Secondary symbolism tends to be ScubaPro or US Divers logos.

...
hmmm lets take take the P.O.V of say A BEGINNER SCUBA DIVER, since this is the forum for it: properly trained and experienced technician working on my life support equipment... or a rank amateur without the tools, parts, or clue..... is there still a question??

From what I've seen at many LDS, are you sure that the difference your aiming for exists? Would you rather have your valve done by an 18 year old instructor who minds the store, or a guy with degree in mechanical engineering, who built his own airplane and did a chassis up rebuilt of the classic sports car that he drives?

 

[tregrrr]

I can only speak for myself and the divers that I train and I restate, "IT IS NOT A PROBLEM." If it is a problem for you, for divers that you train or divers that you know you should address the failings in the diver training schemes, 'cause it's not big deal (or at least shouldn't be).

when I was working in the Caribbean, I if tried to remediate all the psis poor diving among the CERTIFIED divers who came out on our boat, I would never have survived a week. sorry that dog don't hunt

Actually, I have never seen one escape during a dive. I have never dove with anyone who used one. When I let my mind wander back to when I was young well ... there were no auxiliaries and there were no dive tourists.

So, like the LDS we originally started discussing in this thread, maybe you need to concede that times have changed and so has the industry. There are crap divers out there who dive one or two days every couple years. Someone will take them diving because they have money to spend. In such a situation, you cannot dictate what minor accessory the client can and cannot use; you will drive yourself FURTHER to drink. It's nice to cherry pick your guests, but not too realistic in amany resort diving environments. If you send ALL crap divers away, that just sends them over somewhere else where they will just bad-mouth your operation until such point as it impacts business which just gets you fired, nothing else. Yeah its a pity, but also unrealistic to think you can change the world. What you can however do is choose try and mitigate their danger they pose to themselves as best you can without stressing yourself into the martyr position.(hence stowing the poor stroke's flopping gear for him mid dive)

There are some things are more indicative of that phenomena than others, Primary, any saying, "But it's life support ... aren't you (or your wife, or kid) worth it?" Secondary symbolism tends to be ScubaPro or US Divers logos.

Caveat empateur. I for one will not stand still if the bllusiht detecting hairs on the back of my neck so much as shift. If enough people make a point to tell that LDS they are leaving because of the salesman blowing sunshine at them, then the good LDS (who of course has the divers' best interests in mind) will fire their top sales monkey right??

Ever consider that we are trying to argue the same side of the same point, but possibly from different angles?? I do not like the practice of fear-mongering any more than you do. I only pointed out that it was a TACTIC used at various levels of Gear sales and marketing to increase the Percieved Value of that gear....

From what I've seen at many LDS, are you sure that the difference your aiming for exists? Would you rather have your valve done by an 18 year old instructor who minds the store, or a guy with degree in mechanical engineering, who built his own airplane and did a chassis up rebuilt of the classic sports car that he drives?

find a different shop then; caveat empateur. I know you are old, but the service guy who I deal with is probably older than you. He started as a commercial diver for 24 years before getting into teaching divers and servicing kit 20 years ago. so the 18 year olds in his shop might be chatting but they aren't touching gear without supervision.

if your dog don't hunt, consider finding a new dog??

 

[Thalassamania]

I've read with great interest about the fire station thing, and getting the Fire Chief to allow you to use his compressor.

For what it's worth, that doesn't happen here in South Carolina, either. Sometimes the Chief will allow firemen to fill their own tanks (whether volunteer or paid), but not the general public. I'd be surprised to see any Fire Chief with a different attitude about using their expensive equipment like that, but maybe that's the way it happens in other peoples' home towns.

It helps when you walk in with all the required credentials and sign up as a volunteer.

A typical CESA usually means an ascent rate of more than 30 fpm. Sure, it's controlled, but it's still an emergency ascent.

A 100' dive for 20 minutes is right on the verge of an NDL. Therefore, a CESA at that point is an "on the edge" kind of thing.

I don't know how many hundreds of dives I've made to 100 feet for 20 minutes, followed by a 60 fpm ascent ... no harm done! Let’s remember … 60 fpm was, for many decades, the ascent rate of choice, even after 20 min at 100 feet.

I think that the point being made was that even if this didn't actually cause a diver to become DSI symptomatic, it would probably make him feel pretty poor within a couple of hours.

I don't know how many hundreds of dives I've made to 100 feet for 20 minutes, followed by a 60 fpm ascent ... felt fine!

...Assuming, of course, that it was done correctly. As tregrrr stated later, doing a CESA from 100' after 20 minutes, especially for a newer diver, would likely involve a degree of panic in most people - so the liklihood of it being done too fast is pretty high... Likely resulting in some DCI symptoms.

It all depends on the level of training of that "newer" diver. I suspect that most 20 hour wonders would have trouble with that … but that’s just one of many reasons why they have no business at 100 feet.

Perhaps a CESA from 100/20 would affect you that way - perhaps it wouldn't. As you probably know, it completely depends on your physiological conditions and how "correctly" you execute the exercise. But the point that tregrrr was trying to make relative to doing a CESA right on the edge of an NDL is clear.

Then he should have chosen a better example, once again: Let’s remember … 60 fpm was, for many decades, the ascent rate of choice, even after 20 min at 100 feet.

I dive with ceilings both hard and soft regularly... And I would take my business elsewhere if the guy that's selling me the scuba gear didn't consider it "life support."

I don't want the guy selling me gear to consider it one way or the other, his opinion really doesn't matter. I want him to convey to me a sealed box, at an agreed upon price, in an expeditious manner. What he consider it to be, or not to be, is a complete irrelevancy.

I've never encountered that - my experience is completely the opposite.

Hang out at just about any ScubaPro or US Divers Dealer … you’ll hear it.

Some of us do our own work - and some of us trust a professional with professional tools more than our own hands. Either way, we consider it "life support" and are more trusting of those who feel the same way than those than consider scuba gear to be "recreational toys."

It is neither “life support” nor “recreational toys." It is the tools of my trade. I don’t under-rate it nor over-rate its importance.

Either way, when the work is complete, we test our gear before staking our lives on it... Just as we test our gas before relying on it to keep us alive at depth.

I don’t, “stake my life” (in best, low, he-man voice) on a piece of gear, I use it and I back up it’s function either with training and practice or with another piece of gear.

Normally? How often do you see out-of-air situations? How many tug-of-wars have you witnessed? I am a little skeptical--and concerned--that you have a sample size that allows you to define a norm.

In over 10,000 dives I’ve seen less that a handful of out of air situations, all of which were handled easily. I have never seen a tug-of-war.

You should hang out in the Caribbean watching vacation divers for a while. You'll get to see this at least once every other day if you're with the right crowd.
Terry

If that’s the case, you recreational folks really do need to clean up your act.

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean that they don't happen.

If you dive with the cruise ship divers (I do every winter), who typically get two dives every year or two, you get to see it quite frequently.

Additionally, there are also a huge number of problems that are averted because someone who's well trained is secretly watching the clueless and will step in before things get really bad.

Terry

I have never been on a cruise ship, sounds to me like there’s rather a bad issue there.

And no amount of training will make up for human nature when an actual event happens. I've seen EMT's, firemen, and divers do skills and scenerios flawlessly. But when faced an actual emergency totally freak out. I will give you that good training SHOULD help overcome the panic mode but anyone one of these professions know that during training. They have someone watching over their shoulder like a hawk, so they are practicing an emergency, not living it.

Good training, with good simulations and scenarios that have enough top on them have been shown to push panic back and to help people respond properly to emergencies. Can you do that in a 20 hour course? Of course not!

Great story, but in the end, it's all just bad planning and execution. Especially on something expensive as a movie shoot where an extra few thousand dollars wouldn't even be noticed, Cameron should have had a qualified safety diver with him at every moment.

Terry

Great story, lousy operation. But then Al has always thought of himself (and everyone around him) as invulnerable and has never paid what I feel is proper attention to safety considerations (remember Ocean Quest and Shawn Weatherly?).

Can't argue with that, it was 20 years ago and despite the massive budget the whole shebang was poorly executed but again just an example of what happens when you least expect it.

If you have not planned for a bail-out, and practiced it, it is hardly a question of the something happening when you least expect it, it is a question of being too stupid to paln for predictable problems.

Yes true, but many take the easy road for the pitiful job security and the students are none the wiser. I had the same conversation with a local instructor here where the owner dictated everything and he was shocked at the cookie cutter training and how it was virtually impossible not to get certified, he chose not to continue to work for the shop but they churn out hundreds of students every summer.

Another reason to support your LDS http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/akona/320259-poor-customer-service.html

A good reason to avoid Akona (and maybe Sherwood) but hardly a good reason to subsidize a dive shop.

when I was working in the Caribbean, I if tried to remediate all the psis poor diving among the CERTIFIED divers who came out on our boat, I would never have survived a week. sorry that dog don't hunt.

Sorry that dog bit you, I’d never work in such a situation.

So, like the LDS we originally started discussing in this thread, maybe you need to concede that times have changed and so has the industry.

I don’t have to “concede” that, I state that explicitly. My point is that the change has not been for the better, but rather for the money.

There are crap divers out there who dive one or two days every couple years. Someone will take them diving because they have money to spend. In such a situation, you cannot dictate what minor accessory the client can and cannot use; will you drive yourself FURTHER to drink. It's nice to cherry pick your guests, but not too realistic in a Caribbean resort diving environment. If you send ALL crap divers away, that just sends them over somewhere else where they will just bad-mouth your operation until such point as it impacts business such that you get fired. Yeah its a pity, but also unrealistic to think you can change the world. What you can however do is choose try and mitigate their danger they pose to themselves as best you can without stressing yourself into the martyr position.

Not my problem, mon! I can (and do) “cherry pick” whom I train and whom I dive with. If you don’t … well, that’s your karma.

Caveat empateur. I for one will not stand still if the bllusiht detecting hairs on the back of my neck so much as shift. If enough people make a point to tell that LDS they are leaving because of the salesman blowing sunshine at them, then the good LDS (who of course has the divers' best interests in mind) will fire their top sales monkey right??

With any luck, and some people working to debunk the “life support” description, that will change with time. I have rarely encountered anyone working in a dive shop (and there are rare exceptions) that had opinions that were much more than just the rather inexperienced mouthings of what were told by those that trained them, when you go back the chain it is often hard to find anyone who is even on their second wet suit, second dry suit, second regulator, second anything. But that is (I guess) because the half life of the average diving instructor in the industry is just a hair above two years.

Ever consider that we are trying to argue the same side of the same point, but possibly from different angles?? I do not like the practice of fear-mongering any more than you do. I only pointed out that it was a TACTIC used at various levels of Gear sales and marketing to increase the Percieved Value of that gear....

I agree with you completely.

find a different shop then; caveat empateur. I know you are old, but the service guy who I deal with is probably older than you. He started as a commercial diver for 24 years before getting into teaching divers and servicing kit 20 years ago. so the 18 year olds in his shop might be chatting but they aren't touching gear without supervision.

if your dog don't hunt, consider finding a new dog??

I’m sixty. I was a Diving Safety Officer for almost 30 years and a scientific diver for more than 40 years. I’ll service my own gear thank you.

 

[tregrrr]

A good reason to avoid Akona (and maybe Sherwood) but hardly a good reason to subsidize a dive shop.

yep

Sorry that dog bit you, I’d never work in such a situation.
I don’t have to “concede” that, I state that explicitly. My point is that the change has not been for the better, but rather for the money.

no argument there... I am a product of another era. I have done the PADI thing. Do I question the product I am licensed to provide?? frequently yes, especially when the $$$ focused management is getting overly stressed about scheduling vis a vis time spent on pool sessions.

That, Mr moderator, is a discussion that seems to permeate through many of your posts, and which however in this particular case, is a point that has very little bearing or relation to the original topic of divers supporting LDS vs LDS supporting divers. Since it is such a poignant issue, possibly it deserves it's own thread??

Not my problem, mon! I can (and do) “cherry pick” whom I train and whom I dive with. If you don’t … well, that’s your karma.

karma no, bad day at work yes. I have sent "more than [my] fair share of divers back to the boat" according to management at one place... oops my bad?? but bye and large, in that environment, if you want to eat, you guide the tourists and try to entertain them enough to get tipped.

With any luck, and some people working to debunk the “life support” description, that will change with time. I have rarely encountered anyone working in a dive shop (and there are rare exceptions) that had opinions that were much more than just the rather inexperienced mouthings of what were told by those that trained them, when you go back the chain it is often hard to find anyone who is even on their second wet suit, second dry suit, second regulator, second anything. But that is (I guess) because the half life of the average diving instructor in the industry is just a hair above two years.
...

I’m sixty. I was a Diving Safety Officer for almost 30 years and a scientific diver for more than 40 years. I’ll service my own gear thank you.

I thought you were of the same vintage as the service tech, you guys sound alike.... at 60+ , GAWD does he ever whine (in a he-man way of course) a lot too about the quality of instruction and divers and and and and

 

[JKPAO]

Honest self evaluation! Oh and the almighty DOLLAR!
See you topside! John

 

[Thalassamania]

yep no argument there... I am a product of another era. I have done the PADI thing. Do I question the product I am licensed to provide?? frequently yes, especially when the $$$ focused management is getting overly stressed about scheduling vis a vis time spent on pool sessions.

You're either part of the solution or you're part o the precipitate.

That, Mr moderator, is a discussion that seems to permeate through many of your posts, and which however in this particular case, is a point that has very little bearing or relation to the original topic of divers supporting LDS vs LDS supporting divers. Since it is such a poignant issue, possibly it deserves it's own thread??

I am not a "Moderator," I am a "Guide." What' that? We're not exactly sure.

karma no, bad day at work yes. I have sent "more than [my] fair share of divers back to the boat" according to management at one place... oops my bad?? but bye and large, in that environment, if you want to eat, you guide the tourists and try to entertain them enough to get tipped.

Sounds like having to pay back a karmic debt to me.

I thought you were of the same vintage as the service tech, you guys sound alike.... at 60+ , GAWD does he ever whine (in a he-man way of course) a lot too about the quality of instruction and divers and and and and

We don't whine ... we gowl ... and he's right!