Why should I support my LDS?

[tregrrr]

except for Mr Moore, we are still fully on our segue, so I will bite too:

My experience is limited as you can see from my stats. I am a "vacation diver". I haven't been on a cruise ship so can't attest to that part.

Cruise ships offer a 'fast food' type of vacation; everything is easy (relative term). Cruise ship divers tend to be the type of person who DO NOT do what you do and practice their skills in the LDS pool, but rather get into a port and look at the menu of things to do and realize: wow SCUBA:"We gots our licenses here in my bag, we might as well use 'em. Scuba is like riding a bike (insert buddy's petname here), you never really ferget how. It will all come back as soon as we see the gear." In the meantime, he/they/she has not seen water in some 5 years. While not everyone is like that, there are enough out there to create a bad image within the community who guides and instructs them.

I only get the chance to dive 1 or 2 times a year due to budgetary restraints and the fact that there just isn't any diving close to where I live. Reading some of the posts here would have one believe that anybody that comes off a cruise ship or could be classified as a vacation diver has no skills, is dangerous to be around shouldn't be diving. The majority of these divers are trying to improve their skills. Experience is the only way to do that. Some are able to dive a quarry or a lake close to home and get that experience. Some of us (myself included) do not have local quarries and other places to improve their skills, for these folks I ask where do you expect us to get the experience? I frequent my LDS, (this is the original topic of this thread) and I practice in the pool there.

one thing so many people forget when they do get their PADI certification is that they signed the STANDARD SAFE DIVING PRACTICES STATEMENT OF UNDERSTANDING, of which the first item is:
1. Maintain good mental and physical fitness for diving. Avoid being under the influence of alcohol or dangerous drugs
when diving. Keep proficient in diving skills, striving to increase them through continuing education and reviewing
them in controlled conditions after a period of diving inactivity, and refer to my course materials to stay current and
refresh myself on important information.

That is why you are doing what you are supposed to, as an infrequent diver, and nothing more or less than the minimum you agreed to. (assuming you are among the 70% who took PADI)

For us unskilled, inexperienced vacation or cruiseship divers, please feel free help and mentor us I for one am more than willing to take your advise and try to improve, as far as being hammered and critisized?...not so much.

Did you know it costs us around 700$ each year to keep current with insurances and agencies?? Our 'hobby' of teaching people has often blown up in our faces in the historical past, thus resulting in massive lawsuits from greedy 'grieving' widows and which in turn has led to the requirements for insuring to the hilt. I contend that rather than asking for free pointers, instead you go in asking for an instructor to do a 'scuba review' or take a specialty course. Either one will, in your town, likely result in one on one instructor time that you ought to benefit more from than just free tips in the pool.

... we had a couple of, well, um, "hefty" young ladies join our boat one day. Watching them waddle down the dock I had serious misgivings about how this dive was going to go. They got on the boat, put their gear together competently while maintaining an incessent chatter with us and each other, and turned out to be pretty darn competent divers.

I still remember one similar but different to yours who came on our boat, not from a cruise ship, but rather from a timeshare resort... She talked competent, had an extensive logbook, well used BP/W with long hose all in well used but usable order. All around appeared that she would be competent. After her first (of 8) dive we called her 'the Plow.' Her clear-ish fins came back multicolored from all the sponges and oral she massacred.

the shock can go either way

Not "anybody", but quite a lot. They're not generally dangerous to be around, but yes, anybody who hasn't been in the water in years shouldn't be diving until they've taken a SCUBA skills update class, or at least done a review and a skills session in a pool.

There aren't many places in the US where dive-able water is more than a few hours away, and even without open water, pools are available pretty much everywhere.

This isn't some sort of elitism, I just have a problem with the vacation industry feeding people to the wolves (sharks?). While diving in nice warm water isn't rocket science, "not running out of air" still requires gas management, "not getting bent" requires awareness of depth, time, ascent rate and tables or a computer, and "being safe" still requires buddy skills, good judgement and everything that should have been taught in OW class.

Diving without this is just rolling the dice and hoping nothing "bad" happens.

Terry

AMEN

Did my first cruise two years ago and couldn't get the local dive shops in Alaska to work with me at all... Your coming in on what? *Click*
....

Hrrrm I wonder if you... there's gotta be a way... OH yeah, I remember being on their end of the telephone... NOPE there is no way to circumvent the stigma until waterskills are demonstrated. sorry.

But take a step sideways; you are dealing with ALASKA. Their diving is COLDWATER. The vast majority of Cruise shippers are going to be bathwater divers. Until you convey that you are an active diver in Nebraska quarries, they will assume you are another warm water diver who just figures they can jump right in. Analogy (for those who like to shoot down bad analogies ): Socialite soccer mom who wants to take a loaded 9axle fuel tanker truck for a spin. What do you mean driving a minivan with automatic transmission and 5 screaming kids doesn't qualify me for double de-clutching an 18 speed tractor with airbrakes and 130' overall length?? c'mon it will be fun change of scenery.

they know their diving is different and they have dealt with cruiseship divers before. They likely have been burned nearly as often. No, cruiseship divers aren't all bad, but there are enough out there to paint the picture. In intricate detail.

As an point of remark, cruiseship divers for the most part refer to divers who book their cookie cutter dive excursion with the cruiseline's affiliated operators and dive in a herd on a cattle boat. Divers who happen to take a cruiseship, on the other hand will typically book ahead and make their own arrangements with a smaller operator so they can watch the herd from a safe distance.

 

[Codiak]

Hrrrm I wonder if you... there's gotta be a way... OH yeah, I remember being on their end of the telephone... NOPE there is no way to circumvent the stigma until waterskills are demonstrated. sorry.

But take a step sideways; you are dealing with ALASKA. Their diving is COLDWATER.

Lol, they just couldn't get past the mode of transportation and ignored the ICE diving cert, Drysuit Cert, Cavern Cert... blah blah blah


I still took my gear in the off chance... but ended up being an over dressed snorkler

 

[Web Monkey]

Did my first cruise two years ago and couldn't get the local dive shops in Alaska to work with me at all... Your coming in on what? *Click*

Dived on the the HMS Rhone in Tortola last week with a cruise boat tour and was surprised at the good bounacy control many of the divers demonstrated.

The wreck is heavily trafficed but still a much better experience than I expected.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but I was on the Rhone this January from a cruise ship also. Everybody's buoyancy was OK, but awareness and gas planning was apparently not. A diver came flying up to the DM waving his SPG back and forth, in a unique attempt to signal OOA.

Then I watched the DM hang there and try to figure out what he wanted, then share air, then think how to bring the OOA diver back to the surface without leaving a bunch of unknown other divers alone on the bottom.

My witnessing one incident on that day doesn't mean any more than somebody else not witnessing an incident on the same trip the next week, except that over the last 9 years, I haven't been on a single cruise where there hasn't been an incident of one sort or another.

Terry

 

[dwhthediver]

I have never needed one because almost every boat that I have dived out of would include filled tanks and weights.

And I guess you got trained online too? I didn't I trained at my LDS, so you probably think I paid too much for training. MOST boats I have dove have also included tanks too, even though I own my own...so why aren't they giving me a discount since I am not using their rental tanks, those guys are ripping me off!!! No, they aren't and neither is a good LDS who has a staff that is knowledgable, helpful, and friendly, that is worth something extra, isn't it? and those that don't have those kind of staffs will disappear. What about service? Does Leisurepro or Scubatoys give you a loaner to dive when your equipment gets UPS'd to them for service? Bet not, but if my gear isn't ready in time, there is a loaner for me, but you don't care about that do you? You will just cancel that Fiji trip because your online supplier lost your reg sending it back via FredEx. A good LDS is essential to the growth of the sport of SCUBA.

 

[redacted]

And I guess you got trained online too? I didn't I trained at my LDS, so you probably think I paid too much for training. MOST boats I have dove have also included tanks too, even though I own my own...so why aren't they giving me a discount since I am not using their rental tanks, those guys are ripping me off!!! No, they aren't and neither is a good LDS who has a staff that is knowledgable, helpful, and friendly, that is worth something extra, isn't it? and those that don't have those kind of staffs will disappear. What about service? Does Leisurepro or Scubatoys give you a loaner to dive when your equipment gets UPS'd to them for service? Bet not, but if my gear isn't ready in time, there is a loaner for me, but you don't care about that do you? You will just cancel that Fiji trip because your online supplier lost your reg sending it back via FredEx. A good LDS is essential to the growth of the sport of SCUBA.

It is always good to hear the unbiased opinions of folks who make money by being associated with an LDS.

Many LDS's knowledge, like their pool, is fairly shallow.

I don't want to pay for helpful and friendly. I'm just looking for goods and services at competitive prices.

I don't need to pay twice the price at an LDS so I can get a loaner when it fails.

Why would I want to see the sport grow? Isn't that like wishing there were more traffic on the highways?

 

[Sas]

And I guess you got trained online too? I didn't I trained at my LDS, so you probably think I paid too much for training. MOST boats I have dove have also included tanks too, even though I own my own...so why aren't they giving me a discount since I am not using their rental tanks, those guys are ripping me off!!! No, they aren't and neither is a good LDS who has a staff that is knowledgable, helpful, and friendly, that is worth something extra, isn't it? and those that don't have those kind of staffs will disappear. What about service? Does Leisurepro or Scubatoys give you a loaner to dive when your equipment gets UPS'd to them for service? Bet not, but if my gear isn't ready in time, there is a loaner for me, but you don't care about that do you? You will just cancel that Fiji trip because your online supplier lost your reg sending it back via FredEx. A good LDS is essential to the growth of the sport of SCUBA.

You don't need to get training via an LDS. I am in a private club, that has instructors and I get much of my training there. The last course I did was organised with an independent instructor. My regs I can send away for servicing and whilst that is being done I can use another set I have or borrow from the many generous people I dive with. Same with any other kind of servicing. My annual tank hydro is done by an LDS (a very good one) but if that went away there are other places to get hydros.

Fills could be done at compressors owned by other independent clubs or if it came to it I know people who are so into diving that we'd all put in to get one. Many of the very experienced divers I know have their own. Same with boat trips - I know people who have their own boats, there is even an independent diving club full of people who own boats.

I can buy all my gear online and much of what I buy these days is from online.

Don't get me wrong, an LDS is handy and I have a few that I think are excellent. But they are not needed - just a nice to have. People dived long before there were LDSs and if they go away people will still dive. Definitely less people but personally I do not care if there are less people diving. I love diving in winter, as often me and my buddy are the only people around, for example

 

[Thalassamania]

And I guess you got trained online too? I didn't I trained at my LDS, so you probably think I paid too much for training.

No, at an LDS the chances are (not absolute, but by the odds) that you paid too little, and got too little.

MOST boats I have dove have also included tanks too, even though I own my own...so why aren't they giving me a discount since I am not using their rental tanks, those guys are ripping me off!!! No, they aren't and neither is a good LDS who has a staff that is knowledgable, helpful, and friendly, that is worth something extra, isn't it? and those that don't have those kind of staffs will disappear.

Would that what you say were true, it isn't. BTW: I'd settle for just knowledgeable when it can be found, I don't need helpful or friendly.

What about service? Does Leisurepro or Scubatoys give you a loaner to dive when your equipment gets UPS'd to them for service? Bet not, but if my gear isn't ready in time, there is a loaner for me, but you don't care about that do you? You will just cancel that Fiji trip because your online supplier lost your reg sending it back via FredEx. A good LDS is essential to the growth of the sport of SCUBA.

Two approaches, have back up regulators (I've got a bunch), have friends with backup regulators, service it yourself and then there's no issue. The real bitch is getting to Fiji with your just serviced regulator and having it crap out ... and that happens ALL THE TIME. Actually, I've never seen a regulator mechanically fail, except right after it was serviced by a shop. I've never had one that I serviced or that any of my techs serviced fail in service, but then we always bench checked them (signed off) and tried them in a pool (signed off) before returning them to the user.

I see not a single reason way an LDS is essential to the sport of scuba. It's just one approach, and a dying one at that.

 

[Codiak]

I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but I was on the Rhone this January from a cruise ship also. Everybody's buoyancy was OK, but awareness and gas planning was apparently not. A diver came flying up to the DM waving his SPG back and forth, in a unique attempt to signal OOA.

Then I watched the DM hang there and try to figure out what he wanted, then share air, the think how to bring the OOA diver back to the surface without leaving a bunch of unknown other divers alone on the bottom.

My witnessing one incident on that day doesn't mean any more then somebody else not witnessing an incident on the same trip the next week, except that over the last 9 years, I haven't been on a single cruise where there hasn't been an incident of one sort or another.

Terry

Like I said, I was surprised... most excursions are just over priced wastes of time.

As for OOA... yeah quite a few came up with 300psi or less and failed to signal half or 1000psi. But that's guided tours for ya.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Many LDS's knowledge, like their pool, is fairly shallow.

+1

I don't want to pay for helpful and friendly. I'm just looking for goods and services at competitive prices.

+1

I don't need to pay twice the price at an LDS so I can get a loaner when it fails.

+1

Why would I want to see the sport grow? Isn't that like wishing there were more traffic on the highways?

+1!!

I think that's like actually "plus four," isn't it?

 

[tregrrr]

...Many LDS's knowledge, like their pool, is fairly shallow.

hrrrm... what comment does that make if the LDS's pool is either lacking or drained??

I don't want to pay for helpful and friendly. I'm just looking for goods and services at competitive prices.
I don't need to pay twice the price at an LDS so I can get a loaner when it fails.

Online, we could almost buy 2 of whatever critical piece if we were that concerned about a loaner, .

Why would I want to see the sport grow? Isn't that like wishing there were more traffic on the highways?

I do wish there were more divers... the crowding on convenient sites would just lead the more adventurous among us branch out and find more secluded sites to play on. it would create more demand thus more supply, in all aspects of our sport. More competition would dictate better products be marketed at more attractive price points especially considering the R&D to design could be amortized over larger production runs. It would also make more people interested in running dive operations and increase the need for more active clubs... possibly driving the inevitable LDS transformation faster?

just sayin... economies of scale and such, bigger may be better just from an academic economic frame of though