Why Recreational Triox ??

[-hh]

Yes and no.

My question isn't about the class. I know you have that mindset going into it. The class aside is what I'm refering to. We can get the same/similar "class" work out of other GUE courses. What I specifically asked (Please re-read to refresh the question) is the He question ONLY, as it pertains to cost/benefit to less than 100ft for those without access to anything but horendous costs of He.

Reminds me of a Pontiac Salesman my Dad was dealing with back in the 70's:

"I'm sorry, but if you want Air Conditioning, its only available as a package with AM/FM upgrade, a vinyl roof, and whitewall tires."


-hh

 

[DeepScuba]

Actualyy HH that's not quite fair to say.

You can easily answer the question I asked without delving into the "class". The two can be mutually exclusive, so I thank you to leave your retoric out of my questions with MHK.

Open your mind and close *******, and you will see the two are separate issues. MHK seems to agree.

If it was meant to funny, please use a smiley so I know the difference. If so, negate this reply. I can only assume the worse, given how this thread has been going thus far.

******* = Personal editting for content unbecoming.

 

[DeepScuba]

Actually MHK. no further answers are required. I think we can see what happened. As I was making my post crystal clear, you were answering and got in first.

Evidently you didn't require extra clarity as you answered my question.

Regards

 

[-hh]

Interesting observation, but as long as a diver is metabolizing, gas exchanging (at the cellular level) and breathing normally, hypocapnia should not happen. Respiratory drive in healthy people is primarily CO2 driven - when CO2 levels go up, we have the urge to breathe.

Yup, via the CO2 being transported as Carbonic Acid, which changes blood pH.

I *think* the idea behind the benefit of a lighter gas vs heavier N2 (besides the much discussed narcotic potential) is the reduced work of breathing in the hyperbaric environment. The next breath will still be triggered by the increased CO2 level in the blood, it may just take a little longer to get there because the work load is reduced.

Exactly, and this is where the claim loses traction: if the CO2 is lowered, the body will simply breathe slower until it builds back up to the point it requires for its feedback loop to function normally. If the value goes high, the response is an increased respiration rate until the value returns to its target.

And on WOB, the most significant contributor for a Rec diver to reduce his WOB is through his regulator's hardware, both its design and its maintenance.

Hmm - this brings up another question for a newbie to the concept - do you trimix users find you have lower SAC rates at those depths than when you used to use air?

It must, by whatever degree that their claim works. And that would be a great thing to list as another major benefit in their promotional literature. YMMV, but since its not listed, IMO Marcellus was right (Hamlet Act I, Scene 4).


-hh

 

[MHK]

I might add MHK, this isn't a "gotcha" question. It's not trolling.

My question is far simpler to you, as a diver GIVEN THE SITUATION as described......(Horendous costs of He as it pertains to cost/benefit of dives in the less than 100ft range). Would you feel a diver is putting himself at more risk than is REASONABLE by not diving He.


Thanks for the time man! Hope there's no bill at the end of this course!

In the past I used to do a ton of deep air diving, but as my knowledge grew and as the advantages of helium became clearer I no longer adopted the approach of using air on deep dives. That being said the 80'-100' range, or the above 100' range as you say, is an area that I'd say that given the horendous cost benefit issue you describe that a reasonable person may choose not to dive helium..

Hope that helps..

 

[chrisch]

Guys - a further question from an ignorant Brit...

Is Helium really so expensive in the US?? I thought you had more or less the world stocks of it??

When I was there last (Upstate NY) gas was a dollar a gallon - about a third the price here. I stocked up on Levis and Gap khakis as well as they were half the price of Europe. The food there is cheaper too and in such huge proportions you throw a third of it away (very eco friendly I'm sure).

Are you really telling me that helium is too expensive???

By comparison here (London)
12 Liter 232 bar (99cu ft)
Air: US$3.50
EAN32: US$9.53
Tx 25/25: US$20.79

I wouldn't have a 12L tank of mix so it would be more (bigger tank) but I wanted to compare all three gasses.

Chris.

 

[detroit diver]

All of those items are quite appropriate for the stated objective (diving in 80-120fsw) and are not being questioned.




If a free exchange of actual info is what you want, here is your chance:

I question the logic and justification to also include/apply Triox, for I do not see it being particularly of meritorious benefit for the stated dive range of 80-120fsw. Please explain, with actual information.


-hh

Do you ever read anything, or just post at will? Re what MHK has said, time and time again.

I'll try an phrase it in my own way (if I may, MHK-correct me if I'm wrong).

If it's an easy, warm water dive with a fixed bottom, you can probably get away with using EAN32 at 100 ft or above. Below 100ft, the benefits of mix begin to outweigh other options.

For cold water, high exertion diving in the 80-100 ft range, mix would probably be a better choice than EAN32.

If you don't like that, cool. No one cares. Everone has their own choices.

But seeing as though you refuse to consider mix anyway, why dont you go on and post in a different section. I might make a couple of suggestions....

Your rants are getting boring. We don't need this to start sounding like rec.scuba -and that's exactly what you're attempting to do (minus the swearing).

 

[Genesis]

Doubling your gas cost may seem insignificant to some, and indeed it probably is, if you only dive 10 or 20 times a year.

However, if you dive two hundred times a year, then its NOT insignificant. Indeed, you could buy a compressor (well, ok, almost) with the difference in one year given the numbers you postulated - and they're damn aggressive!

Around here, Nitrox is about $10/tank (commercial fills.) Trimix @ $.30/cf (which is what Fill Express charges, and about half the "going rate" at most other shops) is $24.00/tank (at Fill Express) to close to $50/tank at many other "establishments."

Of course if you have your own fill station then it can be cheaper, but only marginally, since you need to either (1) use a stick and compress the resulting mix at least in part (e.g. blend Helium and Air, and PP in the O2) through your compressor, or (2) own a booster. A booster will cost you at least what the compressor will, PLUS you need a fairly serious shop air source (yet more money) to drive it, and the booster cost then has to be amortized as well.

From what MHK has posted, however, it appears that Triox is not really much about Triox, but rather more about being a deep diving course. In that regard it might be worthwhile, BUT for the gateway problem (e.g. for a person already certified to either AOW w/Nitrox or Rescue, you effectively have to "start over" with GUE and go through DIR-F before you can do anything else with them.)

I can see someone coming out of OW directly taking that path, or someone who wants to take Tech1 or Cave1 from them specifically, but for those who aren't looking to go that route it seems to me to make a lot less sense.

Given that, however, Il don't see the point in selling it as a "Triox" class rather than a "GUE Rec Deep" class, which it appears to more appropriately be from MHK's description.

(BTW, HH is right about Hypercapnia and CO2 loading in general; this is pretty basic physiology stuff. Demonstrating the "superiority" of the Triox gas should be trivial to do since in "normal" people the breathing reflex is CO2-mediated. As such if CO2 retention is lower in someone breathing Triox, it will show up immediately in their RMV. To test this you can take a representative set of divers, say, 100 divers, and put either 30/30 or 30% Nitrox in their tanks, but do not tell them which is which. Equip them with Vytecs or other similar gas-integrated computers, then have them dive back-to-back with one tank of each, without them knowing which, with some diving the Nitrox first and some diving the Heliox first. If there is a significant difference in CO2 loading between the two gasses at the depths in question it should be instantly obvious and statistically significant upon examination of the gas consumption data; simply put, the Heliox divers will use significantly less gas as theri CO2 exchange will be more efficient and the O2 content is a constant.

Indeed, such a controlled test in a chamber would be easy to do too and more accurate, but expensive due to the chamber time. It would not be hard at all to do in an open water environment though provided that both dives were done on the same site. Double-blind protocol would keep anyone from knowing what was what prior to use; this would require insisting that no breathing/talking take place on the surface (donald duck effect would give it away) nor could drysuits be used OR both sets of dives would have to use a suit-inflation bottle separate from the backgas.

If you can't show the effect in open water, however, then I'd argue that the effect is small enough for it to be insignificant in real terms for real divers.)

 

[dbulmer]

In the past I used to do a ton of deep air diving, but as my knowledge grew and as the advantages of helium became clearer I no longer adopted the approach of using air on deep dives. That being said the 80'-100' range, or the above 100' range as you say, is an area that I'd say that given the horendous cost benefit issue you describe that a reasonable person may choose not to dive helium..

Hope that helps..

Funny enough I asked a couple of experienced divers in our club - why use Trimix for 100-130 and they basically answered thew question in 2 ways.

1) First of all, the diver takes a personal decision to use it fully aware of the cost implications 2) why? they answered that they found they were able to remember the dive more clearly and just plainly found it more enjoyable and that the price was worth paying for a good happy dive. The answer wasn't complicated - I suspect they could give other reasons to but kept it simple for me a novice diver. By that reckoning it seemed a good reason - at the end of the day anything which enhances your enjoyment of diving seems ok to me but .. well are we supposed to enjoy diving or should we worry about diving in virtual overhead environments?

 

[detroit diver]

...........

From what MHK has posted, however, it appears that Triox is not really much about Triox, but rather more about being a deep diving course. In that regard it might be worthwhile, BUT for the gateway problem (e.g. for a person already certified to either AOW w/Nitrox or Rescue, you effectively have to "start over" with GUE and go through DIR-F before you can do anything else with them.)

I can see someone coming out of OW directly taking that path, or someone who wants to take Tech1 or Cave1 from them specifically, but for those who aren't looking to go that route it seems to me to make a lot less sense.

Given that, however, Il don't see the point in selling it as a "Triox" class rather than a "GUE Rec Deep" class, which it appears to more appropriately be from MHK's description.

I took the AOW w/ nitrox class from PADI, and then took the DIR-F class from GUE. If you haven't taken the Fundy class, then you really shouldn't be making statements that it "makes a lot less sense". It is quite a remarkable class, and I highly recommend it to ALL divers-including instructors who think they are the best divers in the world. They are the ones most humbled.

You need to remember something-these classes are not for everyone. They are only for those that wish attain a higher level of diving skill thru GUE. If you don't like their methods-don't take their classes. It's actually quite simple.

GUE doesn't want to waste their time on divers that have not taken the Fundy class because those types can't do even the most basic of requirements. That's why it's a prerequisite to the Triox class. The Triox class is the first half of the Tech 1 class. For some of us with time constraints, it's the only way to take the Tech 1 class.

As for the title of the class- who gives a sh*t? I know what it is, and so do most people who have some interest in this type of diving.

If you don't like the name, start your own agency and call your classes whatever you want to call them. Just be sure that the title can fit on one
8 1/2 x 11 page.....