Why Recreational Triox ??

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MHK:
In reviewing this thread a couple of final thoughts came to my mind:
They aren't final; indeed, they're what you've been saying all along. Repeating them doesn't make them more true (or less false!) than they were before.
1) The red-herring that is being bantered about is that somehow or another the concepts that we are recomending are new, radical and/or un-tested. That is an untrue premise, meaning of course the starting point of the discussion is wrong. In other words, the concept(s) of gas density; hypercapnia; narcosis et. al. are not in dispute.
The concept of pressure gradient isn't in dispute either. What is in dispute is whether the issues you claim to be addressing have a real, measurable effect on divers that make mitigation statistically significant in any way at the depths in question.

There is no doubt that at 200', for example, trimix is a good thing. That is not the point under discussion. The point under discussiion is whether it has any value (other than emptying your wallet faster) at 70'.
2) What the naysayers are disputing is the fact that these concepts are inapplicable in the ranges that we are advocating. So the misdirection game that they play is to acknowledge the points, but then say since we didn't do a specific peer review study that "certifies" the idea in the 100' - 120' range that therefore the concept is invalid. That is red-herring 101..
More misdirecton Kane. The "naysayers" are asking for anything beyond anecdotes that provides evidence of statistically-significant benefit in the range of 100-120'. You've been asked for it on SDN, and now here, and you keep sidestepping the issue and demanding instead that others prove a negative.

That's not how science works. You prove positive things, not negative ones. As anyone who has any kind of background in the scientific disciplines knows, proving a negative is extremely difficult, as you must eliminate all other possibilities. Proving the converse positive is much easier - if its true, of course.
3) The real issue to undertand is that the premise of our position isn't in dispute per se, but where we disagree with other agencies and guys like Genesis and/or hh is where the application of the "accepted" fact applies.
Actually, that's only half of what's in dispute.

The other half of what's in dispute is that the "our position" (thank you for actually identifying this as an official GUE thing too) is the hypocrisy of teaching and certifying someone to do a thing that cannot be responsibly done with the equipment demanded for the class.

No responsible person would do a cave dive (even one with only very limited penetration!) with a single-cylinder, single-orifice tank. Why? Because you have no breathing-gas redundancy, and even when dove to thirds you could find yourself out of gas before you and your buddy can exit. This is true irrespective of the SIZE of the single tank.

The same principle applies to this class, IMHO. Diving Helium-based gasses requires more discipline in ascent profiles. Exactly how much more is the subject of some dispute, but that additional discipline is required is not. Indeed, GUE will not issue the card if they are not convinced you can manage this additional discipline.

This, effectively, means you are in an overhead environment. This is true any time you have had to discard a CESA as a valid response to an emergency, reserving it for the last-ditch column in which the only other choice is certain death.

Since this is an overhead environment, appropriate equipment should be mandated for the class. Kane argues that requiring doubles for such a class is insane. I retort that there are other options, such as dual-orifice valves on large single tanks (e.g. AL100s, HP100 and 120 steels, etc.) or the use of a pony bottle.

Indeed, some form of complete air-supply redundancy has become required kit on many NE dive boats. These folks know something that Kane doesn't? Or is it that GUE simply doesn't want to "limit" their class to people who will make the appropriate investment in both training and money to utilize what they have learned?
4) For example, IANTD, TDI, NAUI et. al accept the premise for dives in the 170'+ range, PADI accepts the premise in the 165' range, so the conceptual point isn't whether the premise is true, which is what Genesis & hh have been advancing, the dispute is more along the lines of at what depth?? Similar to saying that an Indy 500 driver wants every advantage that he can get during a race, but since Joe Schmoo doesn't drive at 170 mph we should all ignore the ergodynamic advances in the auto industry..
There is more than one point in dispute, as I have repeatedly pointed out. Outside of the range where some form of air supply redundancy is, IMHO, mandatory, I argue that Heliox is without benefit. That would be for dives of less than 100' in depth.

For dives between 100-130' there may be some benefit. However, at that depth IMHO additional equipment requirements come into play. As such that equipment should, IMHO, be required for the class, since diving at those depths "more safely" is the entire point of the class.
The only issue at question is at what measure do you want to judge the "goal line".. Some think the benefits apply in the 170'+ range, others think they apply in the 165' range, whereas we continue to believe that recreational divers, that dives in the 100'-120' range are capable of deriving the benefits through proper education. We respect everyone's right to draw their own line in the sand and we continue to suggest that we recognize that our training isn't for everyone so if you want to continue to dive outdated principles then we appreciate that GUE training isn't for you. However, if you want to understand the benefits associated with helium based diving in the recreational realm then we remain available.
Regards

And now, in closing, you add a gratuitous insult. It figures.

Never mind that GUE's claim of being "one with the earth" and being focused on conservation would seem to mandate that absent a quantifyable benefit one should not consume a non-renewable resource simply for grins and giggles.
 
MHK:
In reviewing this thread a couple of final thoughts came to my mind:

First off I'd like to say I'm impressed with your graciousness under fire. I’d be careful though or you might end up on the receiving end of a petition drive and your picture on bumper stickers.

I’ve been trying to follow this thread and what I find missing is a description of the benefits the training offers. Perhaps I’m just missing it, or perhaps it’s as simple as reduced narcosis at 80 to 120 feet. So that we can put this discussion into perspective, would you briefly explain the benefits of tri-mix above 120 feet?

Thanks,
Mike
 
Genesis:
Never mind that GUE's claim of being "one with the earth" and being focused on conservation would seem to mandate that absent a quantifyable benefit one should not consume a non-renewable resource simply for grins and giggles.

Based on reduced nitrogen narcosis wouldn’t this actually be a consumption of non-renewable resources for a reduction in grins and giggles?
 
MikeS:
First off I'd like to say I'm impressed with your graciousness under fire. I’d be careful though or you might end up on the receiving end of a petition drive and your picture on bumper stickers.

I’ve been trying to follow this thread and what I find missing is a description of the benefits the training offers. Perhaps I’m just missing it, or perhaps it’s as simple as reduced narcosis at 80 to 120 feet. So that we can put this discussion into perspective, would you briefly explain the benefits of tri-mix above 120 feet?

Thanks,
Mike
That's about the strength of it...

Above 100fsw the benefits are limited. 100-150fsw the benefits are clearer. Some helium also extends the NDL depending on the tables/model used.

Above 70fsw it seems to me to be a waste of money also.

Chris
 
MikeS:
I’ve been trying to follow this thread and what I find missing is a description of the benefits the training offers. Perhaps I’m just missing it, or perhaps it’s as simple as reduced narcosis at 80 to 120 feet. So that we can put this discussion into perspective, would you briefly explain the benefits of tri-mix above 120 feet?

The benefits of Triox shallower than 120fsw is essentially two-fold:

1. Less Narcosis potential, due to less N2.
2. Lower CO2 level potential, due to lighter average gas molarity.

However, the reason that I've said "potential" in both of these is because there's a difference between a potential benefit and a realized benefit. Specifically, something can be true, but if the change is so small that it gets lost in the noise of everything else, then it wasn't a realizable benefit. For example, you can improve your car's MPG if you empty your trunk and leave your spare tire at home, but because the beneift is so small, we don't bother with it.

One of my concerns is that if the CO2 reduction were indeed significant, how does this not then represent a Hypocapnia risk? Hypocapnia is the condition of an insufficient amount of CO2 (ppCO2 < 35mmHg) and is one of the primary causes of shallow water blackout. I don't believe this to be the case, but the implication here is that it must then be a faux 'benefit'.


This is why my first comment here said that we're really just looking at a risk:benefit "remix" that's IMO a bad one for Rec applications:

What it offers is a modestly small reduction in Narcosis risk potential. But what it trades-off to achieve that is: an increased AGE/DCS risks from the addition of Helium, a more complex modeling burden, a higher fiscal cost per dive, no ability to do even very mild deco, no standard dive computer tools, and ZERO bottom-time advantage over standard Nitrox.

FWIW, my above list isn't in prioritized order.


IMO, if you want this as a stepping stone to real mix diving, fine. But if not, unless you're one of the very rare divers who has an unacceptable degree of Narcosis at these recreational depths, I'd recommend skipping Triox.


-hh
 
Genesis:
Since this is an overhead environment, appropriate equipment should be mandated for the class. Kane argues that requiring doubles for such a class is insane. I retort that there are other options, such as dual-orifice valves on large single tanks (e.g. AL100s, HP100 and 120 steels, etc.) or the use of a pony bottle.
Dear lord man....you've lost it....you've gone over the deep end....

IF you want to discuss the pros/cons of Helium above 100' fine, go right ahead...but you're bringing up stuff that you are making bad assumptions about b/c you've never taken a GUE class.

1 - this is not a technical training class of any kind...thus, this is not an overhead environment. You are taught how to deal with situations while in the water as opposed to bolting for the surface. That is the training presented in the class...how hard is it to accept that?

2 - Singles or doubles....who cares, the requirements are spelled out in the course guidelines. GUE teaches a gas management system that essentially boils down to if you don't have a large enough reserve with a single tank, you need to re-evaluate what equipment you're taking on this dive. Yes, that is going to be depth dependent, but the requirements for the course certainly allow the use of a single tank for the diver who doesn't want to go past 100', yet wants to include helium based diving in their tool kit.

Indeed, some form of complete air-supply redundancy has become required kit on many NE dive boats. These folks know something that Kane doesn't? Or is it that GUE simply doesn't want to "limit" their class to people who will make the appropriate investment in both training and money to utilize what they have learned?
Good for them....that's a CYA deal for the number of incompetent divers they've seen do something stupid. This has nothing to do with what Mike knows or doesn't know...it isn't in any way related to GUE's training....what are you on when you dram this stuff up?
 
MikeS:
First off I'd like to say I'm impressed with your graciousness under fire. I&#8217;d be careful though or you might end up on the receiving end of a petition drive and your picture on bumper stickers.

I&#8217;ve been trying to follow this thread and what I find missing is a description of the benefits the training offers. Perhaps I&#8217;m just missing it, or perhaps it&#8217;s as simple as reduced narcosis at 80 to 120 feet. So that we can put this discussion into perspective, would you briefly explain the benefits of tri-mix above 120 feet?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,

What gets missed when the usual crowd starts with the misdirection game is that the class is, in essence, an advanced class that many of us in the industry have wanted to see for a long that is designed to teach divers how to properly dive in the ranges of 80'-120'. While some have myopically fixated on the introduction of helium, the benefits of the class extend well beyond helium. Proper ascent rate strategies, proper team diving protocols, lift bag shooting, rescuing a toxing and unconscious diver, basic decompression strategies are discussed [ but bear in mind this is an otherwise NDL class] are just but a few of the concepts we discuss. Some are misapplying the information taught in the class, which is understandable since many that are arguing profusely haven't seen or taken the class. Some would have you believe that we are advocating using helium at 70', which isn't what we teach. The difficulty in discussing certain concpets on scuba forums is that all too many just want to play " I gotcha", rather then allow for a free exchange of actual information.

Regards
 
MHK:

I want to ask you a question. I am coming to the plate open minded and hopefully with no "bagage".

I personally agree He is a good thing, even at these shallow depths I concur that in theory and practice it's a good thing.

Now here's where I need you to be open minded, and please PM me if you think it prudent to answer outside the public forum.

Lets face it, eating hotdogs, second hand smoke, and living itself is destruction in the works, as a cellular processes go.

If I had to weight the cost of He fills for me in my location (Please don't forget, in some places it is prohibitively expensive) I don't get it for "cost" as you do. And even if I did, my "cost" is more than your "cost".

Given that, combined with the marginal clear headedness it may argueably give at such shallow depths (We're talking 100ft or less don't forget). Would you argue a person is fundamentally flawed if he chose to weigh the cost/benefit of his situation (which is different than yours) and he found that diving without the benefit of He was quite acceptable?

I hope I have articulately and respectfully posed a real world question to a real world problem.

DS
 
DeepScuba:
MHK:

I want to ask you a question. I am coming to the plate open minded and hopefully with no "bagage".

I personally agree He is a good thing, even at these shallow depths I concur that in theory and practice it's a good thing.

Now here's where I need you to be open minded, and please PM me if you think it prudent to answer outside the public forum.

Lets face it, eating hotdogs, second hand smoke, and living itself is destruction in the works, as a cellular processes go.

If I had to weight the cost of He fills for me in my location (Please don't forget, in some places it is prohibitively expensive) I don't get it for "cost" as you do. And even if I did, my "cost" is more than your "cost".

Given that, combined with the marginal clear headedness it may argueably give at such shallow depths (We're talking 100ft or less don't forget). Would you argue a person is fundamentally flawed if he chose to weigh the cost/benefit of his situation (which is different than yours) and he found that diving without the benefit of He was quite acceptable?

I hope I have articulately and respectfully posed a real world question to a real world problem.

DS

Great question.
 
MHK:
...(it is) an advanced class that many of us in the industry have wanted to see for a long that is designed to teach divers how to properly dive in the ranges of 80'-120'...Proper ascent rate strategies, proper team diving protocols, lift bag shooting, rescuing a toxing and unconscious diver, basic decompression strategies...are just but a few of the concepts we discuss.

All of those items are quite appropriate for the stated objective (diving in 80-120fsw) and are not being questioned.


...rather then allow for a free exchange of actual information.

If a free exchange of actual info is what you want, here is your chance:

I question the logic and justification to also include/apply Triox, for I do not see it being particularly of meritorious benefit for the stated dive range of 80-120fsw. Please explain, with actual information.


-hh
 

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