Why new divers looking into instructor and tech diving

[CamG]

Greetings eelnoraa and great thread with a lot of responses.
I was so thankful to find this tonight I almost forgot what I loved about SB till about pg 7.
Priceless dialog that is humorous and serious at the same time.
DIVING IS WHAT "YOU" WANT IT TO BE!
What makes one diver happy bores another / what horrifies one diver pleases another.
Just a simple fact some like to instruct and watch the lights go on in a new diver others are more interested in progressing into Advanced dives or into the Tech realm.

Is there a seemingly growing number of new divers interested in Advanced dives?
Maybe so maybe not, depends new divers are always excited to talk about and consume volumes of information on their new found activity.
I was just the same.
I cruised through OW,AOW,Rescue, straight into DMC.
I assisted training divers for almost three years which taught me the industry and the training of divers.
In my internship we were privy to more than the normal zero to hero, which I am not knocking at all.
There is far more to dive instruction than what meets the eye and I am not trying to squish anyones dreams just making a TRUE STATEMENT!

The irony of this thread is I am still a DMC, BY CHOICE mind you and that is another topic.
I urge anyone interested in Advanced diving to pursue their personal dive goals if it is instructional or Tech matters not.
If it keeps them learning, growing, progressing as a diver and having FUN!
A very sad statement in this thread that I know personally to be true is the 5 year or less statistic on divers dropping out.
It happens with most activities but to me diving is something far more than normal activity.

Encourage your dive buddy let his goals be his own but be positive show him support and let him evolve into the best diver he can be.
That is not slamming you one bit as you need to do the same and he should support you in the same manner.
We all have different paths sometimes they run together and other times apart but they both are spurring us onto excellence!
One point that is very important AWARENESS TAKES TIME TO DEVELOP and is critical to ALL DIVING!

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

 

[CT-Rich]

Since the dive he did could have been done by a ROV, I guess that must mean he was an incompetent diver..

Shaw did an amazingly deep dive and died because of an error that he did not anticipate. He planned the dive and it killed him. His case is extreme but he dove beyond the limits of what was doable. He died, I'll assume he knew the price and was will to pay it. Had he lived to 80, probably would have said "man I did some insanely stupid things and I was lucky." He wasn't.

My only point was that there can be a vast difference in learning depending upon the quality of the dive.

Not long ago there was a thread in the A & I forum in which one of the participants had more than 200 logged dives. That's quite a few. Every one of them was done off of a cruise ship in 40-60 feet of water. I think this will sound nuts to you, but I would rather go into a difficult dive with someone who has taken a lot of highly challenging classes (like cave instruction) but has only 100 dives than her, despite her greater number of dives.

In my experience with technical training, a whole lot more goes wrong on those training dives than you encounter on typical dives. These are artificial, but you still have to respond to them. I would say that on every one of the training dives I did for all my technical training, I had to respond to more emergencies than in all my lifetime real world dives combined. I learned something from those incidents that I would never have learned without them.

My analogy was never about the quality of the dives (although I am not sure what is meant by quality), but about the diversity of experience of the diver and their preparedness to be instructors. As usual the question comes down to motivation and expectation. A cave card or tech cert will not grow hair on your chest or make you something you are not. If you are diver with 50 dives and a Cert that says you can teach, you might be awesome. But I think I would prefer to enroll my daughters somewhere else. Unfortunately, people signing up for OW will not have a clue on finding out that you are a 50 dive wonder.

Hopefully, somewhere in the process, someone will say you are too green to be an instructor and you should be logging more dives and adding depth to your training. I say take any classes you want and enjoy them. Find buddies that are comfortable with your expertise, and you with them. When you are seasoned, and feel you have something to share. That is when you should become an instructor or DM. Up to Instructor or DM learning is a personal journey. Those certs are where you are sharing your journey with others and assuming responcibility for others.

As for tech diving, any divers suitability as a tech buddy or even a taking a slot on a tech dive has almost nothing to do with the cert. A captain planning trip out to the Doria will not give a sh*t if you are tech certified. He will care whether you are competent to do the dive (this will most likely mean training, log book, references or a personal history with you). If he smells a wiff of stupidity or incompetence you are likely to stay on shore. No captain is interested in bringing a corpse back to port. A crappy one may not think about it enough, but even they don't want to.

 

[Bob DBF]

You know... the more I think about it... the 'magic' of fundies is simply the existence of a pass/fail criteria. Students shoot for the pass... they rehearse and refine in advance of training (or they fail, refine and repeat).

All Agencies use a pass/fail criteria on OW and other classes, unfortunatly the bar is so low now that no one seems to fail. So take your choice, the standards are low or the Instructors are ignoring the standards, unless you have another choice.

If an alternative course, for instance 'Peak Performance Buoyancy' was subject to strict performance standards and a pass/fail criteria was firmly presented to potential students - I think it would have a similar benefit for high quality development. Of course, it doesn't... despite the existence of performance standards, it is run like an attendance course, certification is 99.9% guaranteed.

Agreed.

Tech training is quite likely to be a divers' first experience of pass/fail based on strict performance criteria. GUE brought that concept forwards into the recreational diving levels with fundies (a very good idea for qualitative improvement).

This concept was in recreational diving well before "tech training" and GUE existed, unfortunatly during the commercialization and expantion of recreational SCUBA industry it became an archaic idea only to be groused about by oldtimers.

Don't get me wrong, I like the trend back to strict performance criteria and producing knowledable,competent divers. It's just that it is not new, just like "tech diving" is not new, it is just a modern version of diving I have participated in and watched over the last 50 years (almost). I was more a rec and rectech diver, check with Thal and some of the guys on the vintage board about the real tech diving in the day, less fancy equipment for the same dive.

The most impressive fact is that the basic skills a diver needs to be proficient underwater have never changed.



Bob
---------------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[Them]

Out of curiosity...

Is there any reason to think pass/fail actually imparts more knowledge? To me pass/fail is just perpetuating the merit badge mind set. You pass this test you get a merit badge..err..card. Why? Because cards are...umm...expected in the scuba community. It all looks like stamp collecting to me. It's like the achievements in MMORPGs...totally pointless but some people get hooked on them.

I can understand getting a card if shops won't fill your tanks without one. Beyond that, you should seek knowledge and ability. You should always seek knowledge and ability and it has nothing to do with cards.

I've been playing guitar off and on for 25 years or so. Every so often I hire an instructor to show me some new tricks and break me out of any ruts/bad habits. I don't ask those instructors for cards, nor do those instructors do anything pass/fail, but I learn a lot. It makes me a better player. Surely that's the point of hiring an instructor???

Unless you have hard numbers that prove people learn faster or retain the information better in a pass/fail context, what's the point? Why is it better to "fail" someone than to continue their training? Surely the real answer isn't pass/fail but getting away from the boy scout merit badge mindset.

 

[TSandM]

I don't think it's actually the pass/fail. It's the height of the bar, and the clarity with which it is described. Fundamentals instructors have to pass a whole MESS of evaluations, all of which are going to hold them to extremely high standards (which they already had to begin to meet by passing Tech 1 or Cave 1). They then have very clear, written criteria for evaluation of students, which the students ALSO know before they start the class. If the students don't meet the standard, they may be given a six month period in which to practice and improve, and then be allowed to pass.

In a PPB class, there is no written standard for how well the students have to perform at the end of the class. It's up to the instructor to decide if they have met the class requirements, and the instructor may not be performing at that much higher a level than the students are. Nobody says you have to be able to clear your mask in midwater without varying from depth by more than 3', or 30 degrees from horizontal trim. GUE sets those standards, and the instructors generally have tools for helping the students reach them.

And no, you don't have to have a helicopter turn to be a vacation reef diver. But it helps. Pinpoint buoyancy control helps. Nonsilting propulsion is really important in places like Puget Sound, and where I dive, good lights are truly a safety factor. A diver who masters the skills of Fundies, to the standards of Fundies, is going to be a happier and more versatile diver than one who hasn't.

 

[lowviz]

...//... asked me if I want to go into tech training with him. I was quite shock when I heard that. ...//...

Why were you so surprised? You headed straight into tech by taking fundies...

 

[eelnoraa]

I don't think it's actually the pass/fail. It's the height of the bar, and the clarity with which it is described. Fundamentals instructors have to pass a whole MESS of evaluations, all of which are going to hold them to extremely high standards (which they already had to begin to meet by passing Tech 1 or Cave 1). They then have very clear, written criteria for evaluation of students, which the students ALSO know before they start the class. If the students don't meet the standard, they may be given a six month period in which to practice and improve, and then be allowed to pass.

In a PPB class, there is no written standard for how well the students have to perform at the end of the class. It's up to the instructor to decide if they have met the class requirements, and the instructor may not be performing at that much higher a level than the students are. Nobody says you have to be able to clear your mask in midwater without varying from depth by more than 3', or 30 degrees from horizontal trim. GUE sets those standards, and the instructors generally have tools for helping the students reach them.

And no, you don't have to have a helicopter turn to be a vacation reef diver. But it helps. Pinpoint buoyancy control helps. Nonsilting propulsion is really important in places like Puget Sound, and where I dive, good lights are truly a safety factor. A diver who masters the skills of Fundies, to the standards of Fundies, is going to be a happier and more versatile diver than one who hasn't.

Thank you! I couldn't have said it better.

Why were you so surprised? You headed straight into tech by taking fundies...

You seem to have a misunderstand here. Fundie is NOT a tech training, not even close. All you will dive is 32% nitrox, at about 40ft of water. The course repeatly emphasize on diving within 100ft and MDL. And at least for me, taking fundie makes me delay any tech training indefinitetly until I believe my skill is ready.

 

[lowviz]

...//...You seem to have a misunderstand here. Fundie is NOT a tech training, not even close. All you will dive is 32% nitrox, at about 40ft of water. The course repeatly emphasize on diving within 100ft and MDL. And at least for me, taking fundie makes me delay any tech training indefinitetly until I believe my skill is ready.

No misunderstanding. Fundies is taught by tech instructors and, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "recreational" progression can rightfully be called "tech oriented". DPV, Doubles, Drysuit, Helium. I don't see fish ID in there...

I commend you for not wanting to proceed until your skills are where you think they should be. I'm just suggesting that you use a bit more of an open mind for non-GUE divers and their intended paths to self-improvement.

I wish you well with the path you have chosen, it is a solid one...

 

[DevonDiver]

Is there any reason to think pass/fail actually imparts more knowledge?

TS&M actually answered that question very well, and did help clarify the thoughts I was struggling to express.

It's not that having pass/fail teaches something... it is a motivating factor that focuses the student's mind on making adequate preparation for the course and provides them with clear feedback on their performance.

If you browse the myriad threads on the board, where divers communicate their experiences with fundies, you can see a distinct trend. Those divers are aware that the course has high standards. They know it is pass/fail... and they know what standards they need to achieve to get the pass. In reflection of that awareness, those students describe, or can be seen to be performing, a great deal of preparation - research, rehearsal, practice, equipment modification - to ensure that they perform to the best of their abilities on the course and stand the highest chance of passing.

To me pass/fail is just perpetuating the merit badge mind set. You pass this test you get a merit badge..err..card. Why? Because cards are...umm...expected in the scuba community. It all looks like stamp collecting to me. It's like the achievements in MMORPGs...totally pointless but some people get hooked on them.

I don't understand how your point applies to pass/fail criteria. Surely, the 'attendance course' approach is more suited to badge collectors. The pass/fail approach is more attractive to skill collectors - those with a genuine interest in improving their skills against a given benchmark.

I can understand getting a card if shops won't fill your tanks without one. Beyond that, you should seek knowledge and ability. You should always seek knowledge and ability and it has nothing to do with cards.

In the case of GUE/UTD/DIR/Fundies etc, the card is a presrequisite to further progression in the training program. You have to pass that course before you enroll on technical level training with the agency.

Beyond that, those agencies/philosophies stand behind a common principle that a certification should mean something. They point towards the benefits of knowing that 'Diver A' and 'Diver X' can get together as strangers, but through the training they've received and standards they've attained, could dive effectively and safely together - with accurate expectations of each-others' ability and adherence to pre-designated protocols and procedures.

Put simply - I am not a GUE/UTD instructor... but if a prospective student came to me in possession of a fundies certification, I would have a reliable expectation of their capabilities, knowledge and protocols. I wouldn't hesitate to take a fundies (tech pass) student on a technical level course, or a fundies (rec pass) student onto a wreck penetration course etc.

I could not say the same about a student that came to me waving an AOW, PPB, MSD... or even DM card from other agencies. Their skill and knowledge levels would be unproven and impossible to anticipate. I would need to conduct appropriate pre-course assessments with them, to determine their suitability. From experience, a significant proportion fail in those assessments and require remedial practice before enrollment.

What we are talking about is a BENCHMARK. The fundies card is representative of a benchmark - a proven performance in regard to a specific set of skills and competencies. The card doesn't matter - but what it represents is of huge value and significance.

Other cards... other courses... do not offer a benchmark. The certifications have no value, beyond the card itself and whatever skills/knowledge the student may have gained... and yes, the card itself (as a physical object, it irrelevant to those). However, whilst the acquisition of skills/knowledge is of premier importance - the ability to communicate those skills/knowledge is important...especially in relation to diving with strangers, or when undertaking activities which require a minimum level of competency... which is where benchmarked attainment becomes desirable... or even essential.

What's in your wallet? Pieces of paper. Why attach a value to those paper slips, why the desire to 'collect' them.... because of what they represent.

I've been playing guitar off and on for 25 years or so. Every so often I hire an instructor to show me some new tricks and break me out of any ruts/bad habits. I don't ask those instructors for cards, nor do those instructors do anything pass/fail, but I learn a lot. It makes me a better player. Surely that's the point of hiring an instructor???

If you go to play guitar with someone you don't know - is there a safety risk to them, or to yourself, should your playing skills prove to be insufficient for the songs you're asked to play?

I could listen to bad guitar all-day... and whilst annoying, it won't kill me. A bad diver, in a confined space inside a shipwreck, could.

Unless you have hard numbers that prove people learn faster or retain the information better in a pass/fail context, what's the point?

I cannot quote statistics... but common-sense shows that the fear of failure and/or desire to succeed has an inspirational effect. How does it work in academia? Oh yeah... they have exams. People pass, people fail. Students are motivated to study hard because there is risk and reward associated with their endeavors. The same is true for sport... we have winners and losers... people are inspired to do things they wouldn't otherwise 'bother' to do, because of that same risk and reward process.

Why is it better to "fail" someone than to continue their training?

Because the award of a scuba certification typically also brings about an increase in the scope of activity undertaken.

It is better to "fail" a diver who doesn't attain the requisite skills, rather than give them a certification that doesn't reflect their capability and, in doing so, encourage/permit them to undertake activities which pose significant risk of injury or death when a skill or competency deficit exists.

Would you argue the same in regards to driving tuition? Is it better to 'fail' a student motorist who doesn't (yet) possess the necessary competence to drive a car... or should they just be given licenses and allowed to 'take their chances' with their lives and the lives of others?

Surely the real answer isn't pass/fail but getting away from the boy scout merit badge mindset.

The thing is... those who choose the option of pass/fail, in preference to attendance courses, are the ones who are least interested in the 'badge'... they are willing to pay money for training, with no guarantee of certification.

---------- Post Merged at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:00 PM ----------

Fundie is NOT a tech training, not even close

It is 'tech preparation', that was it's intended purpose upon conception - and how the skills/drills and knowledge were formulated into a syllabus. However, it is being marketed to a wider audience now - coincidentally, most of which still fall into a 'tech curious' demographic.

 

[walrus2]

A Fundies tech pass is the main prereq for GUE tech/cave training. However, the skills in Fundies for a rec pass are quite generic, as mentioned above. You can do the course in a single tank in a wetsuit without a can light. I met quite a few GUE-trained divers and many were clearly pursuing a tech pass and further GUE courses, but others were happily doing rec dives. Drysuits and can lights make sense for rec dives in colder/darker water, and DPVs are fun. For helium in the GUE curriculum you'd need Rec 3 or Tech 1, neither of which is an obvious or automatic choice or requirement. Fundies instructors are tech trained but only a minority of them also teach GUE tech/cave courses. Many teach in other systems too, including PADI. Although there is no GUE fish ID card, I know several that have done REEF fish and invertebrate ID courses. Does that count? Project Baseline also worries about fish ID.