Why Isn't There a Free Market for Scuba Equipment?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

"If Sarah Palin is qualified to be V.P. of the United States, I'm qualified to be Imperial Emperor of the Universe"
I could be your supreme Emperoress and together we could rule the world, well at least Alaska.

that to a few pages ago. but really to one who is in the market for gear a regular gal can afford, the post, some of them were helpful. the rest is really personal and kind of hard to listen to on SB. but then we are in a free speech world for a little while yet so go on boys, argue it out....price speaks louder than hateful words.
 
My LDS has been threatened by one of the manufacturers he carries to no longer be an authorized dealer because he advertises things below MAP(minimum advertised price). They don't want any LDS to push others out of business. I agree with the OP. If the shop wants to minimize their profit magin, then let them. Now my LDS gives every customer a 10% off discount for being a club member even if they are not. He offers them to be part of the dive club run out of his store though.
 
Looks like this issue is geting some congressional attention:

Retailers Push For Bill For Power To Set Prices : NPR

All Things Considered, December 4, 2008 Ž· A fight is brewing in Washington over whether manufacturers should have the right to set minimum retail prices for the products they make.

For nearly a century, courts have banned the practice under antitrust laws. In July 2007, however, the Supreme Court overturned nearly a century of precedence, upsetting retailers such as eBay and Costco.

Now those retailers are lobbying for a bill that would bypass the court decision.

The case centered on a brand of purses called Brighton, owned by Leegin Creative leather Products in Pasadena, Calif. It sells to independent retailers, not big chains such as Macy's and Bloomingdale's.

Phil Smith was one of those retailers. He owned a story called Kay's Kloset in suburban Dallas. In order to compete with a nearby airport shop that gave airline employees a 20 percent discount, he slashed prices by that much for all his customers.

Leegin stopped shipping purses to Smith. He subsequently went out of business and took the company to court.

"It is an insult to my status as an independent retailer to have my prices dictated by a manufacturer," Smith said.

The case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, where Smith lost.

"Allowing price fixing will result in higher retail prices, lower store sales volumes, lower store profits and higher business failures," Smith said.

The majority of justices, however, considered other factors in deciding to overturn existing antitrust law and once again allowing manufacturers and retailers to agree on minimum prices. They said in their ruling that allowing the practice would provide some stores with more profits that may "give consumers more options to choose among low-price, low-service brands; high-price, high-service brands; and brands falling in between."

EBay's chief lobbyist Tod Cohen blames the decision on the makeup of the current Supreme Court. He said the court, dominated by conservative justices, sided with big-business interests "versus traditional anti-trust doctrine which has been far more of a progressive value rather than a conservative value."

When critics refer to the practice of setting minimum prices, they call it price fixing. But Jerry Kohl calls it "brand maintenance." He's the owner of Leegin and says it's important his independent retailers don't start undercutting each other's prices and cheapening the Brighton brand.

Kohl also dismisses dire predictions that the Supreme Court decision will raise prices for consumers and put small retailers out of business.

"You want to see how it's affected prices walk into Neiman's today," Kohl said. "Almost the entire store is on sale. So, obviously not much has changed."

Of course, there is a deep recession under way. Still, Kohl says his case changed only one thing.

"Now it's not automatically illegal for people to talk about setting prices, before it was automatically illegal," he says.

Now, if a retailer thinks price-setting is unfair, it can take a manufacturer to court. In legal language, this is called the "rule of reason." Critics, however, say few retailers actually would go to the expense and headache of filing such a lawsuit.

"To think about bringing a case like that against a giant with enormous resources is really unrealistic," said Seth Bloom, senior counsel of the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Antitrust, Competition Policy and Consumer Rights. "So it's nice to say in an academic way rule of reason is available, but I think this is about what practically happens in the marketplace."

That's one reason Bloom's boss, Sen. Herb Kohl (D-WI) is sponsoring legislation that bypasses the Supreme Court ruling and makes all price-setting by manufacturers illegal again.
 
But everyone, you, the LDS and the manufacturers know one thing: Where you going to buy the air?

That's an interesting question. Our LDS also fills SCBA tanks for the Fire Department. It's pretty much a given that if the LDS closes, SOMEBODY will be filling these tanks. Does the Fire Department buy their own compressors? Perhaps. I have heard that SOME fire stations have compressors and will fill SCUBA tanks. I doubt they will do Nitrox blending.

Or, maybe an entrepreneur buys up the fill station from the bankrupt LDS and sets up a small business. If there is a demand, the market will provide.

Most major dive sites have shops and they will always survive just on air fills and replacing lost equipment. They are the only game in town. At one time, there was a fellow with a truck or van selling air fills in the parking lot at Breakwater (Monterey). I see that particular business model didn't work out - but it could. It's all about the licensing.

Worst case? Buy a compressor. Sell air fills to your buddies. Hey, LP sells compressors!

That small Max-Air 35 is probably about the size we had on a liveaboard in Thailand. The boat had two of them Unfortunately, only one had a muffler! They would run us over to an island via the inflatable while they charged tanks on the boat.

Richard
 
I saw the WSJ article on price fixing legislation too and immediately thought about dive gear. I wouldn't want to be up against the like of walmart, costco, ebay, and the vast majority of consumers. That said, it's a long ways from an idea to a law. At least there are some big guns in the fight this time.

Here's another (free, unlike wsj) article:
Poynter Online - Al's Morning Meeting
 
The fact that there is 'noise' may make the manufacturers reconsider before there is a law they really don't like.

Richard
 
Not true. If you are a retailer and want to hold a gear sale, and you price a ScubaPro item below a certain price set by SP by only a few cents, you will get a call from the rep the next morning. If you do it again, whether by accident or intentionally, for example because you believe in competition (god forbid), the rep will call you again and let you know that with immediate effect, you are no longer a SP authorized dealer.

another reason for me to *not* buy scubapro. has anyone put together a list of manufacturers that dont have this policy? If so it may be good to post it. I would exclusively purchase items from those manufacturers if I knew who they were.

that would change the dynamic: if all of the buyers knew who were "free-market" scuba manufacturers.

I'm sure if scubapro or any other manu's sales were hit from a informed purchasing population the market would change.
 
another reason for me to *not* buy scubapro. has anyone put together a list of manufacturers that dont have this policy? If so it may be good to post it. I would exclusively purchase items from those manufacturers if I knew who they were.

that would change the dynamic: if all of the buyers knew who were "free-market" scuba manufacturers.

I'm sure if scubapro or any other manu's sales were hit from a informed purchasing population the market would change.

For better or worse, the policy is shared by almost all of the big name scuba manufacturers. The extent of enforcement seems to vary. Notice how the price of something is exactly the same everywhere you look? That number is almost always the minimum advertised price set by the manufacturer.

Dealers know that they can attract customers with lower prices, so they play silly games with % discounts, free gift cards, buy giftcards for a discount, free shipping, package deals, and so on. It's all a game to sell for less than MAP without overwhelming manufacturer sales reps with complaints from other dealers.
 
here is the truth...

The scuba universe is controlled by an illegal practice known as map (minimum advertised price) and in some cases the even more illegal practice known as marp (minimum allowed retail price) pricing. The simplist way to put this - is these are forms of price fixing. Price fixing is outlawed by the 1890 sherman anti-trust act.

Map (or minimum advertised price) requires that all dealers advertise items for the same price under the threat that if they don't, they will lose their dealerships. While map does allow dealers to sell for less than the advertised price, there isn't much motivation to do so because it is presented to these "bad" businessmen as mafioso style protection by the manufacturers. If everyone holds at their inflated prices, then in theory, divers will shop with the shop closest to them and everyone will be happy - happy that is except for the consumer, who is unwittingly being price gouged as the shop makes insanely high margins.

The term "grey market goods" in the scuba industry is pure bs. There is no such thing except that the term is used to dupe you into paying more for your gear than you need too. There are many shops across the nation who are beginning to fight this illegal practice, including ours. We are in the process of educating the consumer and the federal trade commission and our states attorney general. We ask you to do the same.

Grey market goods are not "grey market" at all - and businesses such as leisurepro are receiving shipments direct from many major manufacturers. Almost all gear available on ebay, amazon and other internet sites comes from authorized dealers who are operating for your benefit - in some way around map and marp pricing. The term grey market goods is used to infer everything from "it's not real scubapro - similar to a fake gucchi bag" to "you don't get a warranty because you didn't buy it from an authorized dealer." the fact is noone is producing fake scuba gear - there isn't a big enough market for it and in almost every case you can register your product with a warranty as long as it comes with a warranty card.

If it doesn't come with a warranty card, it is either not new and has already been registered - or you've been duped by the manufacturer in cohoots with the seller. In other words, this would be evidence the manufacturer dumped the product to the internet seller and either didn't provide them with the warranty cards - or has some agreement in place that the internet seller is not allowed to provide the buyer with the warranty card and must provide nothing more than their in-house warranty. This agreement is good for the manufacturer as it allows them to sell the end buyer parts when they don't have to honor the warranty and is good for the internet retailer because they can buy goods at pennies on the dollar compared to the inept lds owners who don't know their being screwed in both ends.

Good business people know how to operate at lower margins to keep their stores operational in a down economy. For those that don't know it - the scuba manufacturers and the industry as a whole are in big financial trouble. Manufacturers have been heavily laden with inventory and so they dump it into what they call the "grey market." they get their money one way or the other, but local dive shops are getting left behind and the mafia style protection being theoritically afforded them through map and marp is eroding away.

In a map and marp world, the consumer pays inflated prices - leading to less sales and less interest in the sport - which leads to even less sales and a shrinking of the industry. That is what has been going on for some time.

In our proposed world of the abolition of map and marp, prices come down and the consumer wins. When the consumer wins the retailer wins with more sales and a growing interest in a sport which becomes affordable for a family of four. This means more sales for the local retailer - both of equipment and training and ultimately to increased sales for the manufacturers.

My suggestion is to bombard your states attorney generals office with complaints and to visit the federal trade commissions website and use an official complaint form to lodge a complaint.

The answer is this - once map and marp pricing are driven from the industry, then pricing can become competitive in a free market and the industry can grow and flourish.

amen.
 
I believe this post does speak to the original topic - although it also addresses some politics...

I'll let you all have your say without me now... I promise I will not be back here. I'm confident that the diving public has been educated by this thread and knows where each of us stands.

We'll see who they agree with...
I applaud your passion and dedication to making your business work by providing the best value to your customers. Free market transactions... I like the sound of that.
 

Back
Top Bottom