One final word... let us not forget that 5-4 rulings are the most likely to be reversed by future courts...
Why Isn't There a Free Market for Scuba Equipment?
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Thank you for reminding us of how price fixing works. Price fixing was outlawed by Sherman in 1890 (back in a time when America's leaders believed in protecting the people) -so let us reiterate... subsequent laws imposed on us by courts under pressure by major corporations whose lobbyist lobbied for laws in their favor, paid off our polititians (and perhaps even judges) should now be allowed to stand unchallenged?
This is why America is in the mess it is in. It is just a small microcosim of what is wrong with America. It is time to stand up to Corporations and Corporate Controls and Corporate Greed. I'm doing my part - how 'bout you Phil?
It is interesting how on the phone you act as a crusader for consumer rights... then appear in your posts to tuck tail and become a crusader for price fixing.
Phil,
I'm not going to waste my time scanning documents in to the system... there are too many examples - It would take me all day... and I'm not interested in attacking any one manufacturer at this moment. That will come in due time.
But I will offer up an example (see below) of pricing (leaving the manufcaturer un-named) and anyone who wants to see our collection of Dealer Prices is welcome to stop by the store to have a look. Come see how much you are being gouged at other shops. Ask us for a 50% margin and you shall receive.
BCD MAP $699.00 Wholesale to Dealer Tiered Levels $327.00 $310.00 $298.00
If the dealer buys enough volume... his mark-up here is roughly 135% or nearly 85% more than it needs to be. The minimum margin here is 113% or about 63% more than a consumer should have to pay.
This is the essence of consumer protection. This is why car dealers began pulling out invoices etc... Almost any self-respecting business person who is honest and seeks to treat his customers fairly - and so they can understand why they are being charged what they are being charged is willing to accomodate a customers request to see an invoice.
Many say that this is not available to consumers in other types of retail... but they simply don't understand retail. Having been in retail management for more than 20 years I know the fatcs. Many retailers (some of whom I've worked for and have first hand knowledge of) allow price negotiation between managers and consumers. It is almost universally possible in smaller retailers that are family owned. The only place it is often not available - surprise - cororations. This however is not always true either. Having battled within organizations I worked for, I know that managers within corporations such as major department stores are given leeway to provide markdowns to consumers when they deem it a reasonable request or in the best interest of the company.
The problem with MAP and moreso MARP is that it keeps small business from competing in a Free Market. Bigger Internet Sellers skirt MAP and MARP with assistance from the manufacturers. This is collusion. No one has yet to explain how MAP and MARP help the consumer. Why? Because it is not possible. It is a known fact - even by the courts that these things - by design will hurt the consumer - yet they take no action.
What is the court saying here?... In one sentence... "It is OK for big business to screw the American public."
What do you think of that?
sschlesi
Contributor
That's a lame cop out. No one asked you to display every price that upsets you, a single example will suffice, your textual example falls far short of the 300% you have claimed in earlier posts.
It appears you are exaggerating the situation, you are either unwilling or unable to provide an example that backs up your earlier claims. I felt it was good to see someone trying to take action, but your last post puts your credibility on this topic into question in my opinion.
Think what you may... You've been invited to stop by our store to view documents...
Once I start posting official copies of documents it opens a whole new can of worms... which is exactly what certain people want. I'm not playing that game.
Everyone who knows me knows my creedibility - as for the rest of you - think what you want - it doesn't hurt my feelings.
I will grant you that the average and predominant MAP/MARP requirement is in the 100% - 150% range. Most likely 90+ percent of products fall into this range. There are some exceptions that fall below 100% and that go above 150%. They are few... but they exist.
Most importantly... and not to be lost in this discussion is what is fair and reasonable to the consumer... and at what point should the consumer be afforded protection under law?
I am not suggesting a set number. I'm not suggesting that a price be set at all. I am suggesting that retailers be allowed to advertise their prices - as they see fit - and that consumers have a right to a competitive market on scuba equipment. That is what this is about - so lets not lose focus.
Right now, there is no competitively advertised market for scuba equipment. When all retailers are held to advertise the same price - that is the essence of price fixing and when the prices are inflated at a level harmful to the consumer - and at which many retailers could reasonably and affordably sell the products for less, then it is a violation of anti-trust law.
Most importantly... and not to be lost in this discussion is what is fair and reasonable to the consumer... and at what point should the consumer be afforded protection under law?
I am not suggesting a set number. I'm not suggesting that a price be set at all. I am suggesting that retailers be allowed to advertise their prices - as they see fit - and that consumers have a right to a competitive market on scuba equipment. That is what this is about - so lets not lose focus.
Right now, there is no competitively advertised market for scuba equipment. When all retailers are held to advertise the same price - that is the essence of price fixing and when the prices are inflated at a level harmful to the consumer - and at which many retailers could reasonably and affordably sell the products for less, then it is a violation of anti-trust law.
Ken, your basic objection to MAP and MARP prices is an objection that many of us have had. I think these policies stifle the ability of smaller retailers to become larger, buy eliminating advertised price competition to inform consumers that there is a better deal to be had. It also inflates the price the some consumers eventually pay for a product. If you simply click my screenname, you will see that I have been writing about YOUR EXACT POSITION for years now on scubaboard.
What doesn't work is the attempt to gain support for your populist message by exaggeration in the examples you use. You use the word margin when you should use markup. You throw around 300%, when you know it is not 300%. Even in the example you quote, it isn't 300%. I think in a previous post, you even said 400%.
That consumers are being "ripped off" by some retailers is probably a difficult argument, even if it is a great populist argument. You would be right if you said that some consumers make purchases at a higher price than would have happened had they purchased from one of the retailers with a different business model. It doesn't necessarily mean they were "ripped off". It means they didn't investigate the purchase adequately.
Phil Ellis
cdreamer
Contributor
Look, the original topic here was the claim that there isnt a free market for scuba equipment. The hundreds of manufacturers, thousands of points of sale, says otherwise. If you dont want to pay $600 for a regulator from Oceanic, buy the same exact thing from scubamax for half that. Buy it from Leisure Pro. The free market is alive and well.
sclakediver
Guest
Lets not forget that these manufacturers that "back-door" their products to places like LP don't offer "parts for life" and will not even sell an individual regulator parts. Can someone explain how that is not protection?
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