Why Isn't There a Free Market for Scuba Equipment?

[Standingbear56]

That is actually not true... LP is an authorized dealer for much of what they sell. Just beware... they get around MAP simply by listing products on their site as Demo's and used - even if they are brand new. Note their grading system.. it is a slick end around the system. We will soon be doing the same thing. Everything in the store is a Demo model... our policy is you can test anything right from our showroom floor - so technically - they are all Demo models. There is more than one way to skin a cat...

Gotta be careful with the Demo's and used part. We've been informed by several manufacturers that they consider Demo to be Used, even if it was nothing more than a display item, and as such we cannot offer any manufacturer's warranty, which is totally against our credo. Then on top of that, not a day later, we receive phone calls from "customers" who want to know what "DEMO" means and what sort of warranty, on the EXACT SAME ITEMS they discussed with us the day before. Talk about slick! They are already on to that game!

Take Care,
George

 

[mike_s]

I see the biggest problem in this who mess being the manufacturers and their MAP price policies.

Originally this was meant to protect the small shops from the "big shops" volume selling them and undercutting the small shops. But what has happened is that the "big shops" (online big house retailers) now use this to make sure the little shops don't compete with them. Then the big shops make their extra profits with volume buying from the manufacturer that the small shops can't get....

It doesn't help the consumer at all.

Then you have shops **whine** to manufacturers that Leisure Pro is advertising a lower price and they have to match it because they advertise a "price match guarentee".

All these bigger shops don't want to do away with MAP pricing completely. They want to make everyone else keep it and be the sole shop to be allowed to sell it cheaper in order to get more sales.....

still, doesn't help the consumer at all....

 

[offthewall1]

This June 28th, 2007 ruling by the US Supreme Court can expect a flood of challenges for years to come. The decision is another in a long line of decisions favoring big business over small business... and we see where that has gotten us. We need look no further than the current economic mess and the greed of corporate America who's hands are in the pockets of every politician regardless of which of the two major parties they represent. Here is an excerpt regarding the June 28th, 2007 ruling:

"Manufacturers may set a fixed price for their products and forbid retailers from offering discounts, the Supreme Court said today, overturning a nearly century-old rule of antitrust law that prohibited retail price fixing.

The 5-4 ruling may be felt by shoppers, including those who buy on the Internet. It permits manufacturers to adopt and enforce what lawyers called “resale price maintenance agreements” that forbid discounting.

The decision, coming on the last day of the court’s term, was the 15th this year that benefits business and corporations by shielding them from lawsuits and legal claims."

If you're not a conspiracy theorist, now is the time to start signing on to the program. When the supreme court rules without thought on the last day of a session - rubber stamping corporate greed into law, it is time for Americans to rethink our democracy.

I don't want to get to political here... but in the context of this thread, the courts decision should scare you even more. As politicians sit around trying to figure out how to fix the economic mess they created, we hard working Americans are being asked to foot the bill.

Reversing anti-trust laws put in place to protect consumers should be considered impeachable criminal action by American Citizens. Is it just me - or does this ruling bother anyone else?

 

[Scubakevdm]

This June 28th, 2007 ruling by the US Supreme Court can expect a flood of challenges for years to come. The decision is another in a long line of decisions favoring big business over small business... and we see where that has gotten us. We need look no further than the current economic mess and the greed of corporate America who's hands are in the pockets of every politician regardless of which of the two major parties they represent. Here is an excerpt regarding the June 28th, 2007 ruling:

"Manufacturers may set a fixed price for their products and forbid retailers from offering discounts, the Supreme Court said today, overturning a nearly century-old rule of antitrust law that prohibited retail price fixing.

The 5-4 ruling may be felt by shoppers, including those who buy on the Internet. It permits manufacturers to adopt and enforce what lawyers called “resale price maintenance agreements” that forbid discounting.

The decision, coming on the last day of the court’s term, was the 15th this year that benefits business and corporations by shielding them from lawsuits and legal claims."

If you're not a conspiracy theorist, now is the time to start signing on to the program. When the supreme court rules without thought on the last day of a session - rubber stamping corporate greed into law, it is time for Americans to rethink our democracy.

I don't want to get to political here... but in the context of this thread, the courts decision should scare you even more. As politicians sit around trying to figure out how to fix the economic mess they created, we hard working Americans are being asked to foot the bill.

Reversing anti-trust laws put in place to protect consumers should be considered impeachable criminal action by American Citizens. Is it just me - or does this ruling bother anyone else?

Seems to me that it would tend to help the little guys and the brick and mortars by limiting the advantage of bulk buying giants.

Do you know that the reef photo on your homepage is not actually a wall, but a picture of a reef top turned sideways?

 

[offthewall1]

Seems to me that it would tend to help the little guys and the brick and mortars by limiting the advantage of bulk buying giants.

Do you know that the reef photo on your homepage is not actually a wall, but a picture of a reef top turned sideways?

You would be right if the manufacturers were not back-dooring products to the big guys at prices not offered to the little guys.

In addition, this is not just about business to business sales... this is about the artificial inflation of prices to the consumer. Consumers are paying 100, 200, 300 and sometimes 400% or more for goods due to price fixing.

Retailers anywhere will almost universally acknowledge that 40% margin is needed to break even or make a minimal profit... 50% is reasonable and allows a small business owner to pay his/her bills and make a decent living. At 100% consumer gouging occurs. At 200% and up this becomes outright theft... which is abhorent when it is legislated by the manufacturer.

If a retailer such as myself, LP, ST or any other can operate at a 50% margin and provide the consumer with fair pricing... why should a manufacturer be able to dictate that we make the consumer overpay by 50% or more.. and in many cases 100% or more than they should otherwise reasonably be asked to pay?.

Manufacturer Sells to retailer for $100.00
Manufacturer Sets MAP Price at $300.00 (a 200% margin)
Retailer is happy to sell it for $150.00 (50% margin) to consumer because this is all he needs to make to be happy.

In this scenario the consumer is gouged for an extra $150 by the manufacturers insistence on MAP pricing. The manufacturer gets his $100 either way.

Small shops are hurt by this because internet sellers sell for $150 all the while LDS's are held to $300 under threat of losing their dealership. The manufacturer sells products to the internet sellers at steep discounts then turns a blind eye to the LDS... open only when they want to issue a threat. The whole system is designed and controlled by big business trying to run the LDS out of business.

The problem is the LDS owners historically have been sold a bill of goods by the manufacturers which is ripe with lies. MAP now protects big internet sellers and that is why there are more of them and they are thriving - all the while LDS's struggle to pay their bills and are closing at an alarming rate.

If you really think MAP helps the small business - I've got some land in the Sudan for sale.

 

[Scubakevdm]

You would be right if the manufacturers were not back-dooring products to the big guys at prices not offered to the little guys.

I guess I just haven't seen this with any of the manufacturers I've ever dealt with.

 

[offthewall1]

For any shop owners out there that want MAP erdicated, you should look into whether or not MAP and MARP constitute a per se violation in your state Consumer Protection - Anti-trust Laws.

Maryland has some of the strongest Consumer Protection Laws and Anti-Trust Laws on the books. Do some research and find the PDF File "Guide to Legal Aspects of Doing Business in Maryland"

Then Follow Along... Here is a synopsis

XI – Consumer Protection Act – Which prohibits businesses from engaging in “unfair or deceptive” practices in connection with the sale of consumer goods, consumer realty, consumer services or consumer credit.” We plan to argue that MAP is both unfair and deceptive.

This section goes on to say... "It also prohibits the making of false or misleading statements, including misrepresentations made in advertising, or at the point of sale." While it may be a stretch, how many times have you been lied to at the POS when someone told you "That's the best I can do on this" or "if you buy on the internet you don't get a warranty" etc... All of which leads us back to the problems caused by MAP and MARP

More important than this is section:

XIV – Anti-Trust Law – Which we believe “MAP & MARP” can be effectively argued here in Maryland as a per se violation. In some states it definitely is. Maryland has not yet had this type of case argued.

In the meantime I am looking into which other states MAP and MARP may qualify as a per se violation and am seeking shops in those states to bring cases.

While you're sitting in your shop with nothing better to do - take a little time and peruse the internet. Most states laws are easily accessible.

In the meantime, I encourage all divers to buy products from manufacturers and shops who are open and honest in their policies as they relate to pricing. There are two easy tests you can perform when you walk into the dive shop. 1. Use the word internet at some point in conversation. If they become rude, arogant, begin a dissertation on how the internet is evil or you sense any other change in their behaviour... politely excuse yourself and try the next shop down the road. 2. Do they have a computer on the showroom floor with which you can shop your best price online then walk out the door with the item at the best possible price? If not, you're probably getting hosed for at least 50% more than you need to pay.

Now, lets go diving

 

[PhilEllis]

This June 28th, 2007 ruling by the US Supreme Court can expect a flood of challenges for years to come.....

I am not aware of a single case with potential to challenge this decision working its way through the federal courts. Given that, it would be years and years, at best, before any petition could come before the Supreme Court.

When the supreme court rules without thought on the last day of a session - rubber stamping corporate greed into law, it is time for Americans to rethink our democracy.

Ah, Ken......the Supreme Court almost always holds the release of the most important decisions in a term to the last week or last day of the term. While many of us might disagree with the reasoning of the court in Leegin, saying they made this decision "without thought" is a little strong.

Phil Ellis

 

[offthewall1]

Phil,

This area is for opinions.. and mine is they could not have come to this decision with thought.

If they did come to this decision with forethought - then we are all in far more trouble then even we can conceive.

This is actually taking this thread down a political road that I don't want to enter - but you and I both know there are bigger forces at work here.

Lets leave this as an educational thread for consumers - for inso-doing the thread shall work as intended - to educate the consumer and hopefully draw enough ire that without legal assistance, we shall overcome the tyranny.

 

[PhilEllis]

Manufacturer Sells to retailer for $100.00
Manufacturer Sets MAP Price at $300.00 (a 200% margin)
Retailer is happy to sell it for $150.00 (50% margin) to consumer because this is all he needs to make to be happy.

Ken, you have stated, as fact, these absurd mark-up claims several times in this thread. Give us a screen shot or picture of ANY scuba company price sheet that mandates a MAP price that is 3 times the cost of the product.

Small shops are hurt by this because internet sellers sell for $150 all the while LDS's are held to $300 under threat of losing their dealership. The manufacturer sells products to the internet sellers at steep discounts then turns a blind eye to the LDS... open only when they want to issue a threat. The whole system is designed and controlled by big business trying to run the LDS out of business.

All authorized dealers are held to the same MAP requirement as every other small dealer. There is no evidence that internet sellers and small shops have different MAP prices. Now, not all internet sellers abide by MAP requirements and some local stores sell at MSRP-Plus, but that is an individual business decision. Customers will vote with their money.

Phil Ellis