Why is CCR not DIR?

[Sloth]

Sloth, with the very greatest of respect,

If the phrase "DIR" and accompanying protocols that defined DIR were developed when George was the director of WKPP; and

If the WKPP used rebreathers during the push to run line in Wakulla for several years running; and

If WKPP protocols and rationale matching solutions to problems de facto met DIR criteria;

then

"never" is a strong word.

George himself has used rebreathers in Wakulla when they represent the most efficient/effective tool available to accomplish a specific objective.

At issue is where do the risk/ benefit curves cross on an X/Y axis? At which point in a given set of environmental parameters does Option A make more sense than Option B?

Thats why I prefaced it with the "current answer is..."

This was something that Steve was pretty adamant about so I assumed it's an ingrained part of the system.

I guess the real litmus test for a question like this is to post on the Quest mailing list asking when CCRs would be "approved" within the DIR system. You would probably get an answer from JJ direct even. I am not brave enough to do it.

 

[limeyx]

Thats why I prefaced it with the "current answer is..."

This was something that Steve was pretty adamant about so I assumed it's an ingrained part of the system.

I guess the real litmus test for a question like this to post on the Quest mailing list asking when CCRs would be "approved" within the DIR system. You would probably get an answer from JJ direct even. I am not brave enough to do it.

The current answer (as far as I understand it is)

CCR is never DIR(GUE/WKPP) approved currently. It is in theory possible for this to change, but currently CCR is not possible in this sceme.

Someone (Doc Intrepid?) said George used rebreathers in the WKPP, which is true, BUT I do not think or have ever heard that they used CCR -- unless someone wants to enlighten me?

The use of SCR was covered better than I could by others.

 

[limeyx]

Sorry for posting in a DIR thread but this statement is absolute crap.

True, isn't is always heart attack or "drowning"

 

[lamont]

Lamont,

Do you know where I could find this data?

Jeff

(Great thread!)

its from the talk at www.pnwtdc.com a week or so ago. and i think i should have wrote 'equipment issues' not 'equipment failure'.

its still just relative percentages though, and it isn't actually statistically valid to extrapolate outside of the sample population (rebreather fatalities) to the general population...

 

[lamont]

Sorry for posting in a DIR thread but this statement is absolute crap.

nope, sorry, factually based. when you take OC fatalities and rebreather fatalities and then look at the percentage occurance of equipment issues in those fatalities, rebreathers see that associated with fatalities much more often than OC... unfortunately, i don't have the slide deck from pnwtdc with that information...

 

[TSandM]

i think that was me? =)

Wouldn't surprise me, Lamont. I quote you frequently, and probably ought to do so more often.

You should have seen the discussion over the dinner table about what Venn diagrams are . . .

I like the way you think and operate.

We all love the way Doc thinks and operates. He's a unique treasure.

At issue is where do the risk/ benefit curves cross on an X/Y axis? At which point in a given set of environmental parameters does Option A make more sense than Option B?

This is precisely the kind of argument that a thinking diver should be able to make. We should be able to explain WHY the DIR world isn't using CCRs. It is not enough to be able to say that they aren't. If you don't understand the reasons, you really are regurgitating cant.

 

[limeyx]

Sloth, with the very greatest of respect,

If the phrase "DIR" and accompanying protocols that defined DIR were developed when George was the director of WKPP; and

If the WKPP used rebreathers during the push to run line in Wakulla for several years running; and

If WKPP protocols and rationale matching solutions to problems de facto met DIR criteria;

then

"never" is a strong word.

George himself has used rebreathers in Wakulla when they represent the most efficient/effective tool available to accomplish a specific objective.

At issue is where do the risk/ benefit curves cross on an X/Y axis? At which point in a given set of environmental parameters does Option A make more sense than Option B?

The original question is about CCR type rebreathers though, and whether they are "DIR" not whether *any* rebreather is "DIR"

No one is doubting that George and Jarrod used rebreathers, but from my understanding the only allowed DIR rebreather is the RB80 style, NOT CCR's

unless you know that they used and approved CCR's ?

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Someone (Doc Intrepid?) said George used rebreathers in the WKPP, which is true, BUT I do not think or have ever heard that they used CCR -- unless someone wants to enlighten me?

Actually George said it, here:
http://www.baue.org/library/irvine_baue_talk.php

Its all worthwhile if you're not familiar with it, even though some info is dated.

The part where George talks about using rebreathers is where he's asked about the status of Wakulla Springs project.

Also, I've attached some WKPP articles as background.

 

[lamont]

GI3 on a couple of selected CCR guys:

Christos, you have to stop trying to stir up bull**** with anyone with an
acronym ( GUE,WKPP,AUE). There are people from all over the planet doing great
dives that we all want to hear about, whether we would ourselves do them or not.

Let me give you an example that comes up in this Captain CF post where Mike
Pizzio is mentioned. Pizzio is involved in dive operations that use CCR's for
military/law enforcement applications. While I myself would not do that, I am
just as interested in hearing what Pizzio has to say about that as I am in
talking to Reinhard about what he does.

What Mike Barnette says here is accurate. His dive buddy, Joe Citelli, has been
a good freind of mine for almost 20 years, another of his team tested my first
wreck scooter when it was a mockup - took it to 400 feet for me to see what kind
of deflection we would get, and Mike tested the special motor. I used these guys
because they dive constantly and I know they will come back with good info.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gavinscooters/message/3041

 

[wedivebc]

nope, sorry, factually based. when you take OC fatalities and rebreather fatalities and then look at the percentage occurance of equipment issues in those fatalities, rebreathers see that associated with fatalities much more often than OC... unfortunately, i don't have the slide deck from pnwtdc with that information...

Well then you are in posession of facts that those of us who actually understand and dive CCRs seem to have not had access to.
This whole thread is ill conceived in that it is impossible to give a DIR answer to a topic that flies in the face DIR standards. Those who know about CCRs can't reply because we are obviously not DIR so this turns into an unmoderated CCR bash-fest
:mooner: