Why is CCR not DIR?

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Additionally, as Sloth says, the risk/benefit curve is very important. When the inherent risks and added complexities of the rebreather are outweighed by the risks associated with OC...then the rebreather starts to become the "better" solution.
At what point will SCRs reach the end of the line and CCRs then become the better solution? Can we expect to just throw bigger and more SCRs at the problem without increasing the risk? Are the scrubber limitations identical between SCR and CCR? I'm really asking, I don't know the details to come up with the answers.
 
Please remember this is a question looking for a specific DIR answer please don’t guess :no

Oh brother....let me word smith it.

It is not only because of a faulty computer. CCR's can have (and many do) redundacy in O2 cells (2, 3, 4) , batteries (1,2,3), computers (2,3). In addiiton the redundancy can be integrated or completely independent. The more redundancy the lower the risk similar to other OC concepts.

Some of the DIR reasons include the threat of Co2 overexposure amongst others.


Now your left to guess if I know what I am talking about or not....and an endless debate can ensue as to if I am DIR or not. I am not but everything I have said is valid.
 
Just because you guess right doesnt mean you arent guessing :)
 
I wouldn't put much of a wager on ccr remaining non-DIR. This Dec 1 at the GUE Conference:

3:00-3:30 Rebreather Design Considerations
Phil Short
3:30-5:00 Forum Debate: Efficacy of Rebreather Diving – CCR and SCR
Phil Short, Rick Stanton, Casey McKinlay, Jarrod Jablonski, George Irvine

With "The Team" loosing members to the dark side. And with the loss of many potential tech students going directly to ccr. Wouldn't it make fiscal sense for GUE to embrace what more and more divers are finding to be a very powerful and effective tool?
 
Just because you guess right doesnt mean you arent guessing :)

Thank you. Just because you state I am guessing does not also mean it is true. :wink:

We can leave it at that since I am time zone challenged compared to you. I hope my comments helped the original poster with the totality of an answer.
 
I wouldn't put much of a wager on ccr remaining non-DIR. This Dec 1 at the GUE Conference:

3:00-3:30 Rebreather Design Considerations
Phil Short
3:30-5:00 Forum Debate: Efficacy of Rebreather Diving – CCR and SCR
Phil Short, Rick Stanton, Casey McKinlay, Jarrod Jablonski, George Irvine

With "The Team" loosing members to the dark side. And with the loss of many potential tech students going directly to ccr. Wouldn't it make fiscal sense for GUE to embrace what more and more divers are finding to be a very powerful and effective tool?

GUE has never been made diving policy driven by fiscal considerations.

If they do decide to endorse a particular CCR system I would be very interested in the reasons why, and I can guarantee you that none of them would have anything to do with the loss of potential students.
 
"With "The Team" loosing members to the dark side..."
Guys, no one is 'losing members to the dark side'.

In the DIR DVD set you'll see video of George entering Wakulla with what looks like a mini-bar with a blender on top strapped to his back. Its an early rebreather. If you read about the tremendous pushes JJ and George did, they describe the use of rebreathers in Wakulla.

You use tools that make sense to match the requirements.
 
I cannot address the DIR reasons but I am not sure that the faulty computer is the answer. CCR's can have (and many do) redundacy in O2 cells (2, 3, 4) , batteries (1,2,3), computers (2,3). In addiiton the redundancy can be integrated or completely independent. The more redundancy the lower the risk similar to other OC concepts.

I suspect some of the DIR reasons might stem from the threat of Co2 overexposure.

there's a few equipment issues which make CCRs look a little sketchy:

- the O2 cells work best when not exposed to water, which is somewhat problematic when you've got a loop of air you are rebreathing with high humidity and you're diving under water.

- even with voting logic you could have 2 or more cells go bad similarly (e.g. both get wet, both are from the same batch). the voting logic itself is still a single point of failure.

- electronics don't particularly like water and should be approached a little skeptically in critical life-support underwater.

then there's the procedural issues:

- your pre-dive equipment checks must be extremely good and rigorous. screw up with equipment checks on open circuit and you usually either get no gas or lose gas. screw up on a rebreather and you go unconscious (the exception to this obvious is gas analysis in technical diving, which is why that needs to get done religiously). equipment failure is second only to buoyancy issues in rebreather fatalities and occurs at a much higher relative rate than in open circuit fatalities because rebreathers are more complicated devices than OC.

- during the dive you have to be constantly aware of your ppO2 and readouts on CCR, you can't get task loaded or space-out underwater. again, spacing out on OC is bad, spacing out on CCR and you can go unconscious and have a fatality.

- the first awareness you have that something is going wrong and you need to bailout will probably be anxiety due to either hyperoxia or hypercapnia and with hypoxia you'll probably just pass out without noticing. if you've analyzed your gases properly on OC, you shouldn't see these issues.

then there's the fact that the positives of CCR aren't really as positive as all that:

- constant ppO2 decompression goes against the theories of push-pull deco at high/low ppO2s that GUE/WKPP have developed: no backgas breaks with CCR, no high/low ppO2 sections of the deco curve, no giving your lungs and your CNS clock a rest.

- typically CCR divers run with low setpoints and gain very little decompression time advantage over OC divers doing bumps to 1.6

- given sufficient OC bailout, the weight reduction from going to CCR is reduced unless you start doing team-bailout strategies.

So, "DIR CCR" would probably looks something like diving mCCR, or diving an eCCR like an mCCR, with a diver who is extremely detail oriented on pre-dive and post-dive checks and constantly watching their ppO2 and scanning their awareness for warning signs that they're going hyperoxic or hypercapnic. There's a whole lot of minuses there and not really enough plusses.

- don't know if that's exactly in line with DIR thought, but those are my heavily DIR-influenced thoughts.
 
Somebody, a while back, described DIR divers as the "most risk averse of the aggressive divers". And it's clear that caution and safety underlie an enormous amount of the structure of the system.

My guess is that, if CCR technology gets to where it satisfies the scrutiny of the GUE policymakers (which means also the WKPP push divers), we will start to hear about DIR CRRs. But I don't think the basic principle will change, which is that, if you can safely and efficiently execute the dive you contemplate on OC, you should do so.
 
Somebody, a while back, described DIR divers as the "most risk averse of the aggressive divers".

i think that was me? =)

And it's clear that caution and safety underlie an enormous amount of the structure of the system.

My guess is that, if CCR technology gets to where it satisfies the scrutiny of the GUE policymakers (which means also the WKPP push divers), we will start to hear about DIR CRRs. But I don't think the basic principle will change, which is that, if you can safely and efficiently execute the dive you contemplate on OC, you should do so.

yeah, in 20 years after my back gives out and i can't haul around double-130s anymore, hopefully there'll be a good "DIR CCR" program...
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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