Why ‘everyone is responsible for their own risk-based decisions’ isn’t the right approach to take

[The Chairman]

All of those are "trust me dives."

Really? A trust me dive is where you rely on another diver for technical expertise. I don't think that you're relying on them for their technical skills, but rather for their local knowledge.

Are you saying no one should do any of these?

You're moving the goal posts, John. Those aren't trust me dives. Now, a diver in Cozumel going into a cave or cavern (cenote) without the proper training would definitely be a trust me dive. A cave certified diver going into the same situation, would not be. I've dove the cenotes down there, and I take full responsibility for me getting out alive. Oh, I had awesome guides, but I made sure that I left cookies, jumps and tie ins so that I didn't have to depend on my guide to get me out. Doing otherwise would be a trust me dive and I think you're too careful to do that. As far as I'm concerned, yes, there are too many trust me dives done in the Mexican Cenotes. Not enough personal responsibility shown in that regard.

Many years ago I went with a number of ScubaBoarders to Devil's Den Florida. They only require an ow cert, so what could go wrong? During the first dive, I found myself on the wrong side of a fence they had put down there to keep me from going where I was. I hadn't tried to get back there. Nope, I had taken a wrong turn and trusted the facility had been successful in keeping my OW certed self out of the cavern areas. Nope. Much to the dismay of the other divers, I didn't make the second dive, but took a non-diver into their pool for a discover Scuba instead. I didn't go back there until I was cavern certified. Why? Personal responsibility. There's nothing down there worth dying for and I plan to keep it that way. Is that really so unreasonable?

because people do not use them. A written one is better

The same people who don't use mental check lists won't use written ones either.

For example, we teach CESA as a "skill." look up the stats on that. It kills people... well, it contributes to them ******* up and dying.

I agree. Many, many instructors are disabled because of this. Multiple CESAs are horrible for the body and they set a horrible example for students. "Oh, look at my instructor acting like a yoyo on a string. I want to dive like my instructor, so maybe I should yoyo too?"

 

[GJC]

The same people who don't use mental check lists won't use written ones either.

But a larger number of others would use it and it has been shown that using a written checklist reduces incidents.

Saying that some individuals will not do what they have been trained to do does not mean that it is not worth teaching.

 

[johndiver999]

especially when you consider the relatively high accident rate of divers being trained or recently certified

I don't think this has been established. Accidents don't seem to be all that high for the number of dives going on.

Didn't DAN report that half of all scuba deaths occur during training or to divers who have less than 20 dives.. or something along those lines?
I interpret that to mean that those initial dives are "relatively" more dangerous

 

[boulderjohn]

especially when you consider the relatively high accident rate of divers being trained or recently certified

Didn't DAN report that half of all scuba deaths occur during training or to divers who have less than 20 dives.. or something along those lines?
I interpret that to mean that those initial dives are "relatively" more dangerous

No, they did not report that. Nothing like it.

 

[KenGordon]

Here in the UK there is safety regulation in the workplace designed to keep safe employees from unscrupulous employers that cut corners to increase profit. Professional scuba instructors are "at work" and are covered by this legislation. The people they are teaching are not "at work". Nevertheless there are agreed standards for in water cover and surface support etc.

The regulations seem to cover killing students too. https://www.healthandsafetyatwork.com/jan-karon Although maybe the fine was for not collecting the correct form.

 

[KenGordon]

Many years ago I went with a number of ScubaBoarders to Devil's Den Florida. They only require an ow cert, so what could go wrong? During the first dive, I found myself on the wrong side of a fence they had put down there to keep me from going where I was. I hadn't tried to get back there. Nope, I had taken a wrong turn and trusted the facility had been successful in keeping my OW certed self out of the cavern areas. Nope

Sounds like you either didn’t know he risk or were misinformed. If you’d been lost would everyone on here have said “what an idiot!” or “oh, I can see how that could go badly.”?

 

[johndiver999]

Fatalities statistics: what kills people the most in scuba diving?

 

[DanielRJones]

I see people every weekend going through the busses in the quarry and the planes and helicopters does any one of these hold a wreck card I know i do.
I see people head off to the 50m line wearing a single tank with pony and yes they could be stopping at 40m and having a look at the wall but there is a nice car and boat at 47m the closest i have been to these is 2m above them.

everyone has a different personal risk threshold. I have over 400 skydives and most people think i have a death wish or am very risky but i am the opposite i am trained and dive within my skills qualifications and comfort.

risk is down to the individual take the risk or do not take the risk but dont let others dictate to you

 

[newmanl]

All that said, I am surprised at times that we do not have to move bodies aside to get to some dive sites.

Best line ever. I've been saying that for years - thank you Mr. Lewis!

Unfortunately, IMHO, half the industry seems based on 'trust me' dives. Following a guide teaches you far less than planning and doing your own dives. Its like being a passenger in a car, do you learn to drive better, do you learn how to get to places better? I'd argue not. Why is our sport so focused on barely training people to dive (possibly complicated by market forces), then making them dive with a guide because they don't have the skills to pull off a dive on their own? I'd suggest that if folks had to learn the ropes more independently - provided the O/W course was longer and more involved than literally a video and two weekends, they would be more knowledgeable and responsible divers. The model at this point seems to be to teach them just enough and then hold their hands.

So, the industry 'pros'. One weekend last winter, me and my dive buddies checked the tides and the marine forecast, as we always do, and picked the appropriate site - even got there early thinking everyone else would be doing the same thing. Ha! The parking lot was empty, and for the first hour or so we had the place to ourselves. The store-run Saturday morning dive supervised by a local 'pro', went to the other popular site that was blown out with wind. We had lots of company for the second dive!

John, no offence, but again in my opinion, yes, all the dives you listed above are some version of a trust me dive. On a recent trip to Mexico I did a cave dive (I'm 'full' cave certified) with an experienced buddy who I recently started diving with. The dive was good - no issues at all. Good planning, and execution as planned. However, I didn't like the dive very much - the cave was beautiful, but unfamiliar. I was taught, and did up till this dive, progressive penetration - learning the cave in small bits over a number of dives. Me and my usual cave diving buddy 'explored' each cave pretty thoroughly as we progressed in a conservative manner. We would actually go to and surface, if possible, at each and every bailout option, get familiar with as many of the jumps and Ts as reasonable, and understand the water conditions in the various sections (FW, SW and H2S). I did not feel as in control of my 'trust me' dive as I usually feel.

Lastly, I think managing risk and improving safety has to be a team effort between individual divers and the sport/industry. The leaders - the 'pros', of our sport/industry should be obligated, and capable, to provide the framework for it.

Thanks.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

Fatalities statistics: what kills people the most in scuba diving?

In the end most dive fatalities come down to greed and arrogance. I've seen divers pop up at the surface gasping for air after having to grab that last lobster. I also believe that in the back of our minds we want to believe it can't happen to us, but knowing it actually can. Those who truly believe it can't are the ones to worry about.