Why ‘everyone is responsible for their own risk-based decisions’ isn’t the right approach to take

[boulderjohn]

John, no offence, but again in my opinion, yes, all the dives you listed above are some version of a trust me dive. On a recent trip to Mexico I did a cave dive (I'm 'full' cave certified) with an experienced buddy who I recently started diving with. The dive was good - no issues at all. Good planning, and execution as planned. However, I didn't like the dive very much - the cave was beautiful, but unfamiliar. I was taught, and did up till this dive, progressive penetration - learning the cave in small bits over a number of dives.

So are you saying no one should do any of those dives because they are trust me dives?

 

[Doppler]

The dive was good - no issues at all. Good planning, and execution as planned. However, I didn't like the dive very much - the cave was beautiful, but unfamiliar. I was taught, and did up till this dive, progressive penetration - learning the cave in small bits over a number of dives. Me and my usual cave diving buddy 'explored' each cave pretty thoroughly as we progressed in a conservative manner. We would actually go to and surface, if possible, at each and every bailout option, get familiar with as many of the jumps and Ts as reasonable, and understand...

That's an approach that too few "cave divers" take it seems. However, and especially in Mexico where the caves are so long and so complex, it really is the optimal way to dive...

 

[The Chairman]

But a larger number of others would use it

Color me cynical, but I doubt they would.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Fatalities statistics: what kills people the most in scuba diving?

From the DAN article -
Experience also plays a key factor; about half of all fatalities involved divers with 20 or fewer dives (less than 8 percent of those were students participating in training). The activities and the experience levels involved in the dive incidents provide significant circumstantial data about how the diver arrived in a situation, which in turn led to a triggering event. Although circumstantial, this data is important to the researcher as it provides valuable information on how to prevent accidents long before the triggering event begins.

Knowing the root causes of triggering events probably provides us with the best information for preventing accidents. In the more than 940 fatality statistics studied, DAN identified five significant root causes:

Some sort of pre-existing disease pathology in the diver
Poor buoyancy control
Rapid ascent or violent water movement
Gas-supply problems
Equipment problems

I am having trouble with this lead in sentence. If you have a medical condition - heart attack - it does not matter to me if you have 1 dive or 1,000,000 dives. Chances are you are going to die underwater if you have a heart attack. I do not see the heart attack due to you having 20 dives or less - but statistics may be counting this... I think this is a false positive in my opinion.

I am not sure they are saying 50% of all deaths in scuba diving are related to the diver with 20 or less dives.... I have read enough DAN reports to believe somehow this 20 or less dives is misleading...

 

[GJC]

Color me cynical, but I doubt they would.

OK, let's try one more argument for teaching something new and different:

If some instructors are teaching buoyancy control in their open water classes and some (a few) of their students have trouble with buoyancy after getting their cert card, does that make it not worth teaching buoyancy in open water classes?

I now don my helmet and flak vest and lay deep in my foxhole with my fingers in my ears.

 

[drrich2]

If some instructors are teaching buoyancy control in their open water classes and some (a few) of their students have trouble with buoyancy after getting their cert card, does that make it not worth teaching buoyancy in open water classes?

Fair enough, but if I may, here's a question to illustrate your point on the value of a written checklist more in keeping with the way I and some others might think it'd play out in the real world:

What if, making a figure up for sake of argument, you discovered that of fairly avid divers with dive counts over 50, on dive boats, 1 in 20 routinely ran through a checklist prior to splashing, and a move to a written (rather than memorized in OW training) checklist, widely displayed, it would go to 1 in 15?

 

[GJC]

Fair enough, but if I may, here's a question to illustrate your point on the value of a written checklist more in keeping with the way I and some others might think it'd play out in the real world:

What if, making a figure up for sake of argument, you discovered that of fairly avid divers with dive counts over 50, on dive boats, 1 in 20 routinely ran through a checklist prior to splashing, and a move to a written (rather than memorized in OW training) checklist, widely displayed, it would go to 1 in 15?

It may not change at all among certified divers, but if it was part of open water training, it would be very high among all the newly certified divers. And it make take years before it becomes the accepted standard for everyone.

At least on their first dives, until the experienced divers started making fun of the new divers and told them they didn't really need to do it. And then the experienced divers dove off the boat with no BCs and no SPGs because you really don't need all that stuff if you're a real diver.

 

[Bierstadt]

I want a checklist on a sticker. It could go right on my wrist slate. I don't see any, though. Are there any good ones for sale, or do I have to get it custom printed somewhere?

 

[The Chairman]

If some instructors are teaching buoyancy control in their open water classes and some (a few) of their students have trouble with buoyancy after getting their cert card, does that make it not worth teaching buoyancy in open water classes?

You would have to convince the instructors of it's efficacy before they would teach it. In my first ITC, it was impressed on me to use the gear your students would use. I stopped teaching tables because I saw more and more divers using PDCs and no tables on the boat. Even now, I see divers setting up their rebreathers without printed checklists.

 

[GJC]

I never saw one either. I made my own. I made up my own checklist with parts from PADI, NAUI and GUE because none of those totally fit my personal need.

I printed them on this:

Amazon.com : Papilio Inkjet White Waterproof Vinyl - 10 Sheets : Art Paper Products : Office Products

It tends to bleed a little unless you spray coat it with clear spray stuff