Why ‘everyone is responsible for their own risk-based decisions’ isn’t the right approach to take

[johndiver999]

You can’t accept responsibility for risk if you don’t understand what those risks are.


Well if you are going to suffer the consequences of any mistakes (i.e., consequences) then just because you personally under-estimated the risks does not mean that you didn't "accept responsibility".

This whole train of thought is counter-intuitive. If a burglar enters my house and I blow his head off with a shotgun, shall he be incapable of accepting responsibility for his actions - simply because he "under-estimated" the risks of his voluntary behavior?

How about all the people who willingly go on a shark feeding dive? Does any tourist (or anyone really) have enough information to accurately predict the behavior of an uncontrollable shark? Isn't it the participant's responsibility to accept the risk of getting their forearm ripped to shreds? Even if their personal risk assessment is grossly inadequate?

This is the exact reason why I am so hesitant to accept young children as divers. Even if they are skilled and athletic and have good watermanship skills, they MUST be mature enough to understand that they are voluntarily accepting risks in an environment that they can not completely control. Obviously their personal risk assessment skills are under-developed, yet they must accept the responsibility of their decision to enter the water.

 

[boulderjohn]

Even at the bare minimum, OW classes teach students how to dive safely. If someone decides to dive beyond their training level they are to blame. If a DM or resort takes a group on a dive that is beyond your training it is up to you to pass on the dive.

As soon as the diver leaves that OW class, the diver's experiences affect his or her limits, and those limits begin to grow. As the diver tries to understand what those constantly changing limits are, the input of others affects that understanding.

 

[boulderjohn]

A number of years ago, I led a dive trip to Belize, and after a day of diving, several of us settled down at a beach table for some drinks. I was dispatched to the bar area to get a round. I had to wait to make my order, and as I did, a diver was explaining decompression theory to the non-diving bar patrons who had evidently asked him about it. I tried to mind my own business, but I couldn't help but overhear. As I placed my order, the diver left, looking very self assured after explaining those ideas so eloquently.

One of the patrons addressed me. While that diver had been talking, he had noted the pained expression on my face. Being a physician, he knew enough about physiology and physics to know that there was a lot wrong with that diver's explanation, and he wondered if I could do a better job. I explained where that diver had gone wrong (which took a while), collected my drinks, and left.

So, to apply that to this discussion....

• That diver had a number of misunderstandings that will affect his diving. He will make decisions based on those misunderstandings. He needed to get better information. How was he going to get it?
• That diver would probably pass on his misinformation to other less-informed divers who would believe him, since he appeared to be an expert. They will make decisions on their diving based upon that misinformation.
• That was 10 years ago. I don't remember exactly what that diver said and how I contradicted him. I do know that my understanding of decompression theory is much better now than it was then. My practices are different now than they were then. Was my explanation totally accurate? I don't know. Would I say exactly the same things now that I did then? Probably not.

Once again, my point is that as we assess our limitations, we do so based on limited information, including...

• a flawed idea of our own knowledge and abilities
• a flawed understanding of diving principles
• an imperfect understanding of the situation into which we are heading.

 

[KenGordon]

My students: my responsibility. To date, not one has been injured. Why? I believe it's because I push the concepts of limits and personal responsibility as if their life and well being depended on them. In fact they do.

Stewart paid the ultimate price. No matter how much others are charged for their 'complicity' in his death, he has borne the bulk of the price for those mistakes.

Who pays the 'price'?

I've done my share of 'trust me dives'. All of them were done in ignorance. Even the people who took me on those trust me dives were largely ignorant of the peril they were putting me into. I can blame anyone I want for these, and you can be sure that there are some people I will never dive with again. Still, the onus is on me to keep me safe. I will call a dive at any time if I don't feel in control. II'm either in control or I'm not doing the dive.

Great judgement comes from experience. Unfortunately, experience is usually the result of poor judgement.

We understand the diver/student/customer suffers the injury. But who is RESPONSIBLE?

You ignored the ‘if’ in my question. I am not suggesting your students have been dropping like flies, but asking who would be responsible IF something went wrong.

There is a text book exaample of medical devices going wrong due to design mistakes which led to patients being given excessive doses in radiation therapy. Is the manufacturer of some medical kit being incompetent and subject to inadequate regulation a risk that patients should take responsibility for? Should they become experts in software engineering, UX design and XRay sources. Or do they rely on experts to manage that?

Similarly. Should the incompetence of scuba instructors and inadequate QA process or course design by agencies be the responsibility of the customer or the salesman?

Almost every injury is caused by ignoring training and rules. At the start of a course who knows how to proceed? The student or the instructor?

This may be a philosophical/ideological/political thing. Part of being an “individualist” is this idea of personal responsibility and a distrust of authority.

 

[Melanie White]

Well right now we are open water certified
We go to 60 to 70 feet tops
We are getting advanced open in Cozumel and Nitrox so we can then go to 100 feet
We may even do deep diver if not that will be the next thing and then you are allowed up to.130
But I will build up to that really dont plan much deeper than 100 most the time. I just dont want limits because I dont have a certain card.

 

[KevinNM]

You can’t accept responsibility for risk if you don’t understand what those risks are.


Well if you are going to suffer the consequences of any mistakes (i.e., consequences) then just because you personally under-estimated the risks does not mean that you didn't "accept responsibility".

This whole train of thought is counter-intuitive. If a burglar enters my house and I blow his head off with a shotgun, shall he be incapable of accepting responsibility for his actions - simply because he "under-estimated" the risks of his voluntary behavior?

How about all the people who willingly go on a shark feeding dive? Does any tourist (or anyone really) have enough information to accurately predict the behavior of an uncontrollable shark? Isn't it the participant's responsibility to accept the risk of getting their forearm ripped to shreds? Even if their personal risk assessment is grossly inadequate?

This is the exact reason why I am so hesitant to accept young children as divers. Even if they are skilled and athletic and have good watermanship skills, they MUST be mature enough to understand that they are voluntarily accepting risks in an environment that they can not completely control. Obviously their personal risk assessment skills are under-developed, yet they must accept the responsibility of their decision to enter the water.

No, the other alternative to accepting responsibility is to ignore the risk. You are safe to swim into that nice clear cave. You listen the DM who tells you "we do this all the time". You know of course everyone running a dive boat has a radio and O2. Of course all boats always do a through headcount before leaving. What could possibly go wrong? Diving is safe, right?

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

We all push our limits when diving. An OW student takes their classroom portion and then gos into the pool to 16 feet and that is pushing their limits - but they are with an instructor. Then they go to the ocean/lake/quarry to take their open water dives and go to 60 feet and they are pushing their limits - but they are with an instructor. Every cert I/We have taken has pushed our limits - but we have been with an instructor. They then dive with buddies and at some point exceed their cert level by going deeper that 60 feet. They had a great dive, saw lots of good stuff, came to the surface with a safe amount of air remaining - it was a great dive. Confidence is growing - time to take another cert. Is exceeding the 60 depth wrong? Technically yes, but maybe for the diver it was ok? I was in Ko Tao years ago. I was a PADI MSD. Was on a fun dive with and instructor and a new AOW diver going to see the Sattikut - 80 feet to the deck - 100 feet to the sand. The new AOW diver never was neutrally buoyant, swam the entire time mostly vertical. Never once horizontal in the water and neutrally buoyant. In that case I question why the instructor would take someone with such poor skills to that depth? "You should take the AOW course and then you can see the wreck - it beautiful". The answer is easy to figure out - Money. Money for a cert they shouldn't have taken. Money for a dive they shouldn't have been on. We either trust our instructor and push our limits or we trust ourselves and push the limits. When something goes bad it can be blamed on one of those things. I/We need to be smart - thoughtful - wary - responsible - for every dive we do. But some of that type of thinking comes from experience.

 

[The Chairman]

You ignored the ‘if’

Dude... Rly??? What about "My students: my responsibility." don't you understand or are you just grandstanding?

My duty to my students is sacrosanct. I don't just teach the mechanics of diving, but the responsibilities associated with it.

Similarly. Should the incompetence of scuba instructors and inadequate QA process or course design by agencies be the responsibility of the customer or the salesman?

Caveat emptor. Ignorance is curable. Stupidity, not so much. Expecting quality for next to nothing is a malignancy. Many wannabe divers try to get the cheapest training they can, and they often succeed. I can't tell you how you should deal with "other" instructors. I bet they're guilty of giving their clients just what they paid for. Don't expect a Rolls Royce on a Yugo budget.

Almost every injury is caused by ignoring training and rules.

It seems it's rather simplistic to me. There are a lot of vectors that cause accidents and I don't know of any study that supports your claim. That's not to say that ignoring training isn't a problem, but then why blame the instructor?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The problem with certification is that not everyone is trained at the same level. Not everyone retains the information at the same rate. Not everyone reinforces their learning and skills with diving within a short period of their course.

And some are trained to the level of scuba diver, given a pat on the back, high fived, and sent off with an open water card.

This responsibility is a big can of worms that is an exhaustive discussion to do it justice due to all the variables.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

You can't blame a high school Drivers Ed teacher if a former student crashes later in life. Unless there are a ton of instructors out there handing out OW cards like candy I don't see how anyone with a C-card is not responsible for their own actions.