why enter a cave

[Phreatic Fanatic]

Lets see, some OW divers PAID to have a PROFESSIONAL cave diver guide them into a cavern. This should not have been dangerous. The only reason it went bad is because the guide did not know what he was doing, got lost, and led the group into a cave. Very bad mistake and I blame not the divers who paid for a guide, but the operation who was doing the guiding.

Lets face it, we as a fun loving people sometimes do things that we could not otherwise do without a professional guide. This includes trips all over the world with professional guides into dangerous areas where the average individual has no business going BUT with Professionals the risk is considered tolerable. This could involve dangerous animals, dangerous tundra, or caves.

Cavern diving is not all that dangerous. Bonne Terre takes novice divers into their cavern daily and they have a good safety record. Caverns are not overhead environments, and are not much different than a night dive. If you need to surface you can so how is that extreme risk? The answer is when one can get confused and enter a cave, hence the professional guide to prevent untrained folk from entering a cave in the first place.

Now the BASIC Discussion and New Area is inundated with messages from cave divers, BEWARE, you're not trained, bla bla bla. I for one am tired of these public service announcements from Cave divers in the name of safety. IMO if your foolish enough to go caving without training you may die. Its been beat to death, so I have to question are cave divers that bored? Is it they feel the need to pound their cheats and announce their training while telling everyone else how stupid they are to go into a cave? Cave divers are proficient at killing them selves and we do not lecture them when they do. I would appreciate an end to these lectures every time a caver screws up, and in this case that is exactly what happened.

Are you being serious?

 

[Fish-R-Man]

Cavern diving is not all that dangerous. Bonne Terre takes novice divers into their cavern daily and they have a good safety record. Caverns are not overhead environments, and are not much different than a night dive. If you need to surface you can so how is that extreme risk?

I have to take an exception to the statements above in bold. I have done a fair number of cavern dives in Mexico, a few in Hawaii and Chandlers cave in Palau. The all had a solid overhead. The distance to a clear opening varied depending on the cavern, but they all had a solid overhead once in the cavern zone. Chandlers cave had air pockets between sections, but all of the rest you had to transit some distance to have a clear overhead. This is typical for the majority of caverns I have been in.



From the attached pictures of you can see that there is a no clear assent from either of these locations. The first picture is the exit at Dos Ojos, I believe from the East Eye side. The second is a fairly normal section of the Barbie line. If you had an issue with no assistance, you would have a serious problem.

Dos Ojos is enjoyed by a herd of non-cave certified divers every day. Is it dangerous? Not to anyone that can control buoyancy, air share and generally not panic if something goes wrong. Could it be dangerous? Very much so if you have a panicked diver in any one of a number of sections that have a significant swim to an opening. All of the cave guides are fully trained and carry full cave gear when leading a group. The have the ability to quickly solve a problem if something comes up. That reduces the risk, but doesn't eliminate it entirely. For an O/W trained diver to enter these overhead environments without a cave trained guide or sufficient redundancy increases the risk level that is IMHO, excessive for O/W divers. Even if they have some of the more advanced O/W certfications.

 

[ajduplessis]

Lets see, some OW divers PAID to have a PROFESSIONAL cave diver guide them into a cavern. This should not have been dangerous. The only reason it went bad is because the guide did not know what he was doing, got lost, and led the group into a cave. Very bad mistake and I blame not the divers who paid for a guide, but the operation who was doing the guiding.

Lets face it, we as a fun loving people sometimes do things that we could not otherwise do without a professional guide. This includes trips all over the world with professional guides into dangerous areas where the average individual has no business going BUT with Professionals the risk is considered tolerable. This could involve dangerous animals, dangerous tundra, or caves.

Cavern diving is not all that dangerous. Bonne Terre takes novice divers into their cavern daily and they have a good safety record. Caverns are not overhead environments, and are not much different than a night dive. If you need to surface you can so how is that extreme risk? The answer is when one can get confused and enter a cave, hence the professional guide to prevent untrained folk from entering a cave in the first place.

Now the BASIC Discussion and New Area is inundated with messages from cave divers, BEWARE, you're not trained, bla bla bla. I for one am tired of these public service announcements from Cave divers in the name of safety. IMO if your foolish enough to go caving without training you may die. Its been beat to death, so I have to question are cave divers that bored? Is it they feel the need to pound their cheats and announce their training while telling everyone else how stupid they are to go into a cave? Cave divers are proficient at killing them selves and we do not lecture them when they do. I would appreciate an end to these lectures every time a caver screws up, and in this case that is exactly what happened.

It's difficult to understand how someone with STOP, THINK, ACT! in his status can post this amount of rubbish in a single post.

---------- Post Merged at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:33 AM ----------

RonFrank: I would also like to understand that if Cavern Diving is not at all dangerous as you incorrectly pointed out, why would you pay a guide to take you in?

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Hmmm....I'm detecting a theme and a consensus of (informed) opinion here.

Anybody not get it yet? You got it Ron?

 

[Them]

Hmmm....I'm detecting a theme and a consensus of (informed) opinion here.

Seems like the only real consensus is that people who enter conditions they are not prepared for (equipment, training, mental/physical state, et cetera) face a higher mortality rate than those entering the same conditions with preparation.

I would say, "and the sky is blue," at this point but I suspect some of this crowd would debate me on that, simply because of what they think I am.

I don't see a broad consensus as to whether everything described as a "cave" is beyond the preparation of every diver prepared to the OW standard. From the existence of businesses who regularly take OW prepared divers into "cave" environments, and the posts on these forums, it is clear that there is NOT consensus about that. That doesn't mean either side is wrong. More likely they are talking past each other. Chances are each side even thinks they should talk past the other side - that there is an important reason for doing so.

 

[DevonDiver]

Caveat: I am not a cave qualified diver.

Seems like the only real consensus is that people who enter conditions they are not prepared for (equipment, training, mental/physical state, et cetera) face a higher mortality rate than those entering the same conditions with preparation.

From my experience with technical/wreck diving, training and experience have a critical impact on a diver's capabilities.

However, one should also be aware that the demands of training raise as the level of technicality increases - with a subsequent impact upon certification rates at higher level. Most recreational level scuba courses are a matter of attendance - certification is achieved with minimal effort and commitment, with very little chance of the student failing to achieve the required performance standards. The same is certainly not true for technical / overhead environment level courses. These require immense commitment, in many forms, and yet still, a significant proportion of divers might not have the aptitude or psychological robustness to achieve the requisite standard of performance for certification.

It would be erroneous to assume that the difference between an Open Water diver and a Cave diver was merely a matter of 'time served' and courses taken.

I would say, "and the sky is blue," at this point but I suspect some of this crowd would debate me on that, simply because of what they think I am.

I am reading this in the assumption that what you are saying is that 'a viewpoint might carry more or less authority on the board, due to the relative experience and training of the diver who holds that view'.

Very true. A lot of common sense in that assumption. I believe that this notion is prevalent in many arenas, practical and academic, beyond the scope of scuba diving. It is especially poignant when the views of a lesser experienced/qualified person directly contradict those established by informed consensus, statistical research and many thousands of cumulative years of diving experience.

I don't see a broad consensus as to whether everything described as a "cave" is beyond the preparation of every diver prepared to the OW standard. From the existence of businesses who regularly take OW prepared divers into "cave" environments,.....

The act of taking a diver into an environment beyond their training does not represent a 'view'. Rather, it represents a desire to make profit.

When the 'business' takes such action, the persons responsible are rarely, if ever, properly trained themselves. A case of the blind leading the blind.

You may be startled to know that a high demographic of cave deaths is formed by scuba instructors. Divers who are qualified enough to consider themselves 'expert', yet not qualified in that specific environment and, as such, largely ignorant about the risks and requirements they are exposing themselves to. Unchecked ego has killed more than a few 'good' divers.

.... the posts on these forums, it is clear that there is NOT consensus about that.

Everyone has a right to express their opinion. However, expressing an opinion does not make something accurate, factual or 'right'.

There IS a strong consensus in the scuba community (not just the cave community) about the dangers of cave/cavern/wreck/overhead diving. That consensus is easily identified in the 'safe diving practices' espoused by the scuba training agencies.

What could be more obvious than the fact that your qualification is named OPEN Water Diver. You are aware that the term 'OPEN Water' refers specifically to a body of water that permits direct, immediate and unimpeded access to the surface? The name of your qualification provides a glaring, undeniable reminder that you are not deemed capable or prepared to dive beyond OPEN Water environments.

That doesn't mean either side is wrong. More likely they are talking past each other. Chances are each side even thinks they should talk past the other side - that there is an important reason for doing so.

It's a pretty 'black-and-white' discussion: Is it safe to enter an overhead environment with neither education, training or experience to survive the numerous and lethal hazards frequently encountered in that environment?

Those who believe 'yes' have, by no coincidence, not gained the education, training or experience and are thus ill-informed to predict or appreciate the numerous and lethal hazards frequently encountered. Those people tend to favor access to overhead environments through (1) a denial of risk or (2) a denial that specialist techniques mitigate that risk. Both lines of thought are proven erroneous by accident statistics and analysis.

Those who believe 'no', have, by no coincidence, gained the education, training and experience necessary to appreciate those numerous and lethal hazards - and can more accurately assess the lethal threat to unqualified/inexperienced divers.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't see a broad consensus as to whether everything described as a "cave" is beyond the preparation of every diver prepared to the OW standard. From the existence of businesses who regularly take OW prepared divers into "cave" environments, and the posts on these forums, it is clear that there is NOT consensus about that. That doesn't mean either side is wrong. More likely they are talking past each other. Chances are each side even thinks they should talk past the other side - that there is an important reason for doing so.

What you're seeing is a difference of opinion between people whose livelihood depends on taking tourists into these places, and those who don't. Busiinesses who serve tourists are often more interested in getting your money during the short period when you're available than they are in your personal safety ... or the standards established by the scuba training agencies. Ask any representative of any training agency whether overhead diving is within the preparation of every diver trained to the OW standard ... THEIR OW standard ... and I guarantee you you'll get a consensus ... and it will be an unqualified NO!

OW training prepares you to dive in the conditions in which you were trained. That is the standard of every certification agency on the planet. So unless you did your OW checkout dives inside a cavern, then the consensus among those who make their livelihood by creating the standards by which divers are trained is that an OW certification does not qualify you to go in there.

Hate to say it, Them ... but the more I read your posts, the more convinced I become that whoever trained you left out a bunch of really important material that they were supposed to have taught you ... either that or you just refused to pay attention to what they told you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Hmmm....I'm detecting a theme and a consensus of (informed) opinion here.

Seems like the only real consensus is that people who enter conditions they are not prepared for (equipment, training, mental/physical state, et cetera) face a higher mortality rate than those entering the same conditions with preparation.

I would say, "and the sky is blue," at this point but I suspect some of this crowd would debate me on that, simply because of what they think I am.

I don't see a broad consensus as to whether everything described as a "cave" is beyond the preparation of every diver prepared to the OW standard. From the existence of businesses who regularly take OW prepared divers into "cave" environments, and the posts on these forums, it is clear that there is NOT consensus about that. That doesn't mean either side is wrong. More likely they are talking past each other. Chances are each side even thinks they should talk past the other side - that there is an important reason for doing so.

I've highlighted the key word in my post you referred to since you apparently missed the implication of that on your first read.

I've never attempted to make the pretense that uniformed divers would come to the same consensus. That's simply because they don't know enough to even know that they don't know. If they did know enough to understand the risk, they would not go into overhead environments without proper training, preparation and equipment.

When you acquire that minimum level of knowledge, call me and we can have an intelligent and informed discussion on the topic.

 

[nimoh]

I think you could argue that dive operators doing cave tours for OW divers are motivated by profits, and as such probably push the limits of OW divers in overhead environments.

Conversely, certification organizations are motivated by limiting legal responsibility, and as such set the limits of OW divers more conservatively.

The trick is to determine which "experts" to believe. Personally, I have learned enough about cave diving to know that I am not ready for it, but since I still want to dive in caves, I am pursuing cave certification. However, I still have personal limits that go past what certification agencies recommend, and fall short of actual cave diving.

 

[DevonDiver]

The trick is to determine which "experts" to believe. Personally, I have learned enough about cave diving to know that I am not ready for it, but since I still want to dive in caves, I am pursuing cave certification. However, I still have personal limits that go past what certification agencies recommend, and fall short of actual cave diving.

A poignant point. If any trend is identifiable, it is that increased awareness leads to increased caution. That is a very telling correlation.

I've done overhead environment diving for many years, in wrecks, not caves, and progressive experience has only ever served to emphasize to me that they are very dangerous places to venture. The more I learned, the more I respected.

As a qualified, active and specialized technical wreck diver/instructor I would still not consider myself sufficiently prepared to cave dive. I've discussed the similarities of cave versus wreck diving with many authoritative divers before and, dispute the obvious similarities in training syllabus and skill-set, made the decision to prohibit myself from cave environments until I eventually get that training. Those 'experts' advised me that the risks merited specific training and knowledge development... and I respect their opinion sufficiently to abide by that logic.

What I find surprising is that, if I (an experienced technical wreck diver/instructor, with 20 years experience and multiple agency qualifications) don't feel confident to dive caves... how can minimally qualified, inexperienced recreational diver with no specialist preparation or high-level generic skill, make a decision to feel confident or capable to do the dives I won't do...?!?

The only answer I can guess, would be a combination of ignorance, ego and ill-advised, irresponsible encouragement.