why enter a cave

[billgraham]

Now the BASIC Discussion and New Area is inundated with messages from cave divers, BEWARE, you're not trained, bla bla bla. I for one am tired of these public service announcements from Cave divers in the name of safety. IMO if your foolish enough to go caving without training you may die. Its been beat to death, so I have to question are cave divers that bored? Is it they feel the need to pound their cheats and announce their training while telling everyone else how stupid they are to go into a cave? Cave divers are proficient at killing them selves and we do not lecture them when they do. I would appreciate an end to these lectures every time a caver screws up, and in this case that is exactly what happened.

If it's been beat to death, why did we have a fatality and a near miss in the last week? Obviously, the open water agencies are not doing their jobs. You're way off, the problem is that when an open water diver goes missing in a cave, the local cave divers get to go in there and drag him/her out. If you had to search for a dead diver with his/her familiy crying topside, I think it would change your perspective.

 

[boulderjohn]

The lure of an unknown space in front of you is, for some of us, virtually irresistible.

I think there is much more involved. On my first dive in Puget Sound, my dive buddy, a cave diver, diverted her route slightly to go through a short length of sewer pipe lying on the bottom. There was nothing unknown about it, and I would have done the same. I think people drawn to caves have an irresistible urge to swim through such structures. Freud had an explanation, but I don't.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Why enter a cave?

I could never see a reason. If you like caves, there are plenty with spectacular stalacites and stalagmites, AND unlimited air. In the early 70's I went up to cave country with a bunch of cave divers. Some of us were in a marine tech program with advanced diving but no overhead experience. We would dive up to the cave openings and stop. The cavers would head on in. It had zero appeal to me. Going into a water filled cave struck me as very dangerous with no reward. Why people do it is beyond me.

Why dive at all? There are plenty of activities we can do to entertain ourselves without putting ourselves in an environment we were never designed for. Going underwater strikes a lot of people as very dangerous with no reward. Why people do it is beyond a lot of people.

If you think about it for a few minutes, you'll realize that the answer is the same.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jim Lapenta]

For me the reason why I might have entered a cave early on is because as a newer diver my OW instructor made it very tempting to do so. Shortly after getting certed and having aow as well I went with the shop on a trip to the springs. What was the most hyped part of it? Doing the ballroom at Ginnie at night. Because that was safe. And other hyped parts? Dropping into the eye and the ear "to just look in" to the cave systems there and at manatee and devils den. One hell of a teaser. How many others are getting this mixed message as new divers? Just like the buddy system contradictions. You should stay with your buddy but we will lead you single file at high speed on your checkout tours.

Same with overheads. Don't do it but we are going to make it very tempting and seem safe by not talking about the corpses pulled out of that cave recently. Can't do that. Might scare divers off.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[nimoh]

What do you define as great risk? I know of one death just last month of a search/rescue person who was out looking for hiker bodies. It was far from the first, and won't be the last.

I think you are wrong in thinking that's a difference.

How did the hiker die? Was is something that training could have prevented?

If the hiker died due to something like exposure because they got lost, then I would argue that hikers need better training. If it were a medical problem, probably not so much. However, I am not an avid hiker, so I will leave that discussion up to the hikers.

I do think though that the skills and equipment needed to pull off a safe cave dive are far greater than that required to pull of a safe hike, and so warrants more training, but then again, I am not a hiker or a cave diver, so what do I know

 

[TSandM]

I honestly cannot believe that someone could read about this near-accident, and STILL write, "Cavern diving is not that dangerous."

What is truly appalling about this incident was that the father in this family was an OW instructor -- and when they were warned, by people on the site, not to enter this cave, the response was, "It'll be OK; he's an instructor." In fact, it apparently wasn't until two of the family exited and it was realized the girl was lost, that anybody seemed to get wound up about it.

I have been in zero viz -- it was intentional, as a training experience. I wasn't frightened, because I actually had a fair amount of blackout mask time by then, but it is quite different to be in opaque water, than it is to have your lights off or your mask blacked out, where you know in the back of your mind that, if you got into real trouble, it would only take the click of a switch to get out of it. But I have seen an OW diver, doing his cavern class, fail and bail over the inability to do a mask-off swim. NONE of the skills required to cave dive safely is beyond the grasp of an OW diver who is willing to take the time and make the effort to learn them (although the temperament to cave dive safely is not that common). In fact, a lot of them make OW diving much more fun, like learning non-silting kicks.

But I think we DO need to harp on this stuff, because people keep DOING this -- and clearly, in this case, the thought process was, "I'm a dive instructor, I'll be fine." OW instructor training -- even if it's good, and it isn't always -- has NOTHING to do with diving overhead environments, far less GUIDING people into overhead environments (which this father was, in effect, doing, since he had the most training of the group).

I ride horses, which is a sport in which people get killed and maimed on a regular basis. Some behaviors in riding are viewed as foolish -- one is riding without a helmet. There has been a diligent effort to educate people about helmet use, and if a magazine publishes a photo of a rider without one, you can guarantee that that magazine will receive letters of complaint. Those efforts HAVE borne fruit, in that rules have been changed in competitions to allow helmets where they were not allowed before. One can only hope that the efforts people make here, to write about the risks of entering overhead environments and to post stories like this one and the death accounts, will have an effect -- not only to make the individual diver decide not to enter a cave, but perhaps more importantly, to encourage some OW instructors to make a greater point of teaching their students not to do it.

 

[SkimFisher]

Now the BASIC Discussion and New Area is inundated with messages from cave divers, BEWARE, you're not trained, bla bla bla. I for one am tired of these public service announcements from Cave divers in the name of safety. IMO if your foolish enough to go caving without training you may die. Its been beat to death, so I have to question are cave divers that bored? Is it they feel the need to pound their cheats and announce their training while telling everyone else how stupid they are to go into a cave? Cave divers are proficient at killing them selves and we do not lecture them when they do. I would appreciate an end to these lectures every time a caver screws up, and in this case that is exactly what happened.

Then don't read them...

Do you harp on every "which fins to buy?", "which BC should I buy?", "what size pony bottle do I need?", "what are split-fins?" thread there is on SB? Dozens get posted daily. I don't think you're seeing quite as many PSA's from the cave diving world by comparison.

 

[Superlyte27]

Caverns are not overhead environments, and are not much different than a night dive. If you need to surface you can so how is that extreme risk?
.

I'm late coming into this, so I hope this has already been addressed, but did he really just say this? I'm sorry, lost complete respect after that sentence, everything beyond that must be gibberish.

Ron, go into a cavern and look up. What's "over your head".... a big friggin rock.

---------- Post Merged at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:47 PM ----------

Yet you just told the entire board that cavern diving is not all that dangerous. Rather than suggest something derogatory, I'll just point out that you are not qualified to make that statement and maybe you ought to be quiet now.

I hate you guys for setting up scenarios where I must agree with DA. I've only given 2 Likes ever... DA, for this, you get the 3rd.

---------- Post Merged at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:47 PM ----------

Why enter a cave?

I could never see a reason. If you like caves, there are plenty with spectacular stalacites and stalagmites, AND unlimited air. In the early 70's I went up to cave country with a bunch of cave divers. Some of us were in a marine tech program with advanced diving but no overhead experience. We would dive up to the cave openings and stop. The cavers would head on in. It had zero appeal to me. Going into a water filled cave struck me as very dangerous with no reward. Why people do it is beyond me.

In the 70's, it was really dangerous due to lack of training and common sense. Today training is readily available. Common sense.... not so much.

 

[ktomlinson]

"ScubaBoard Moderators may at their discretion, remove any post which advocates unsafe diving practices as defined by the major certification agencies of the scuba diving world. While ScubaBoard does not take an official position on these matters, ScubaBoard does encourage users to maintain safe diving practices. You and you alone are responsible for your diving safety."

Looks like it's only sorta against the rules...maybe another mod will come along and remove it.

 

[GLENFWB]

Did a Moderator on SB actually say this....or did someone hack his account??? We have an example yesterday at Twin Cave of someone who believed EXACTLY what you just stated....it was like they were following your advice and it almost killed them. Had it not been for some alert cave divers, and another cave diver willing to risk his life, things would have ended much differently. Even if you don't care about the people that might die needlessly, then take the selfish approach. If the actions of a few irresponsible people have the possibility of taking away your ability to do something you love...would YOU remain silent? Cave divers bored??? No, but they are worried....worried about loosing the dive sites they love.

Lets see, some OW divers PAID to have a PROFESSIONAL cave diver guide them into a cavern. This should not have been dangerous. The only reason it went bad is because the guide did not know what he was doing, got lost, and led the group into a cave. Very bad mistake and I blame not the divers who paid for a guide, but the operation who was doing the guiding.

Lets face it, we as a fun loving people sometimes do things that we could not otherwise do without a professional guide. This includes trips all over the world with professional guides into dangerous areas where the average individual has no business going BUT with Professionals the risk is considered tolerable. This could involve dangerous animals, dangerous tundra, or caves.

Cavern diving is not all that dangerous. Bonne Terre takes novice divers into their cavern daily and they have a good safety record. Caverns are not overhead environments, and are not much different than a night dive. If you need to surface you can so how is that extreme risk? The answer is when one can get confused and enter a cave, hence the professional guide to prevent untrained folk from entering a cave in the first place.

Now the BASIC Discussion and New Area is inundated with messages from cave divers, BEWARE, you're not trained, bla bla bla. I for one am tired of these public service announcements from Cave divers in the name of safety. IMO if your foolish enough to go caving without training you may die. Its been beat to death, so I have to question are cave divers that bored? Is it they feel the need to pound their cheats and announce their training while telling everyone else how stupid they are to go into a cave? Cave divers are proficient at killing them selves and we do not lecture them when they do. I would appreciate an end to these lectures every time a caver screws up, and in this case that is exactly what happened.