Why don't we emphasize cesa more??

[Soggy]

I guess the question is where does it end? If that's the logic, why do we bother teaching *any* emergency procedure, since people should first learn to infallibly perform every preventative planning procedure possible, to completely eliminate the possibility of any accident underwater?

Wow that's a slippery slope if I ever heard one...

Btw, I agree in a full panic we're not talking CESA anymore. But I can see situations where something catastrphic happens and your buddy is out of reach.

See, you say that like it's an acceptable problem to be having. To me, "buddy out of reach" is a failure of a fundamental diving system that requires aborting the dive. How many problems do you plan on having occur at once underwater?

Also, I can see a situation where a diver thinks "Oh god, I need to get to the surface NOW," bad training or whatever, and is at least able to remember to exhale constantly on the way up.

Again, you are accepting bad training as "ok." Make the standards such that some of the important stuff is taught and less emphasis is put on a CESA.

All things being equal, I just feel it's better to know about it than not.

As a final point. Who doesn't know that they can swim up and get to air? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Just another 2 cents; I have seen a few uncontrollable ascents by divers with 0-100 dives and the skills practiced in CESA were remembered enough to prevent embolism. These divers were not out of air and they were very bad divers but they are still healthy, I'll still teach CESA.

 

[Soggy]

Just another 2 cents; I have seen a few uncontrollable ascents by divers with 0-100 dives and the skills practiced in CESA were remembered enough to prevent embolism. These divers were not out of air and they were very bad divers but they are still healthy, I'll still teach CESA.

Those divers shouldn't be certified.

 

[Adobo]

I guess the question is where does it end? If that's the logic, why do we bother teaching *any* emergency procedure, since people should first learn to infallibly perform every preventative planning procedure possible, to completely eliminate the possibility of any accident underwater?

That's not at all what Perrone or Soggy or some of the others are advocating. What they are advocating are really very simple and are things that should be taught as part of open water training. These things include:
- Buddy diving. You know, keep tabs of your buddy on regular intervals. Never be so far from your buddy that you are unable to render assistance. The kind of stuff you learn from PADI or any other garden variety agency.
- Procedures - Get on the same page as your buddy. Make sure your objectives are compatible and that both of you have the right skill, experience, training and equipment for the dive. Make sure that your underwater communication signals are reviewed prior to the dive. Who is going to lead? Who is going to follow? If you are making an ascent, who is leading? If you have to shoot a bag, who is going to do that? What is the ascent profile? Basic stuff, wit the exception of the bag shoot, all of this is covered in PADI 101.
- Gas planning - what gasses are you breathing? Who has the least amount of gas and how much gas does that person have? What is your no deco limit going to be? When do you have to turn the dive? At what point is it mandatory to begin your ascent (else you run out of gas in an emergency)?
- Equipment checks - how do you ensure your gear is in proper working order before you get in the water? How do you check for leaks before you descend?

What on this list is so objectionable? As a diver, if you do not know this stuff like the back of your hand, then my friend, I only pray that you are proficient at CESA because sooner or later, you are gonna need to deploy that emergency skill.

 

[Gombessa]

See, you say that like it's an acceptable problem to be having. To me, "buddy out of reach" is a failure of a fundamental diving system that requires aborting the dive. How many problems do you plan on having occur at once underwater?

Well, I'm not saying he's a mile away. How many people would thumb a dive and tear up their c-card because at one point their buddy was 15ft away from them and looking at a turtle? Unless you're physically chained to your buddy, I'm just being realistic here. Who executes 100% perfect dives 100% of the time?

Again, you are accepting bad training as "ok." Make the standards such that some of the important stuff is taught and less emphasis is put on a CESA.

There's a difference between accepting as "ok" and recognizing as a reality of the situation. Considering how many people here trash the current state of agency OW certification, I don't think it makes sense to operate assuming perfect planning and technique.

As a final point. Who doesn't know that they can swim up and get to air? Anyone? Anyone?

That's exactly the point. It's what people will do, even if you tell them not to. If that's the case, isn't it better to teach them how to do it in a controlled way that greatly reduces their chances of getting an embolism?

Again, I'm not saying it should be recommended. I just don't believe it should be *eliminated* as useless.

That's not at all what Perrone or Soggy or some of the others are advocating. What they are advocating are really very simple and are things that should be taught as part of open water training. These things include: ...

Hi Adobo. I'm afraid that's a mischaracterization of the argument. I FULLY agree that more emphasis should be placed on all the things you mentioned, and that they are invaluable skills for every certified diver to know. But some people in the thread were advocating the complete elimination of teaching CESA, not merely deemphasizing it. I believe CESA has its benefits as a last-ditch technique, which is not inconsistent with anything you wrote above.

 

[lamont]

The only thing that disturbs me about this thread is the undercurrent that seems to be implying, "if you can't plan your dive perfectly, you don't deserve to reach the surface."

That's a strawman entirely in your own head.

If diving were flying we'd be turning loose a bunch of pilots who didn't know how to compute their gas needs. Then we'd be looking at all the crashes due to running out of fuel and concluding that we need to teach pilots how to land planes unpowered on a glide more and practicing that. Which it should be obvious is ***-backwards.

The focus on teaching and practicing CESA instead of teaching some kind of rudimentary gas management is what is killing people. And having actually pulled someone out of the water who died as result of an OOA and CAGE due to barotrauma I'm pretty offended that you seem to think I'm arguing that she deserved to die. Apart from the impact that it had on her family and friends, I really didn't need to go through pulling her dead body out of the water either.

Stop questioning my motives. They're very simple in that I don't want to do more body recoveries of divers who ran OOA and don't want anyone else to go through that. The way forwards is not through teaching CESAs "better", its through teaching gas management so that OOAs don't happen.

And its fine to teach how to do a direct ascent to the surface. But the situation that should be used for is a lost weightbelt or an error in weighting resulting in an uncontrolled ascent. It shouldn't be taught primarily as a way to deal with an OOA situation.

And you are correct that the instinct is to shoot to the surface. That instinct is inherently dangerous and from the beginning the diver needs to be taught and trained to try to overcome that, so that if there's a free-flow at depth that results in an OOA that the diver will go to their buddy first before blowing to the surface from 100 fsw.

 

[mdb]

Who doesn't know that they can swim up and get to air? Anyone? Anyone?

They may know that they swim up. Do they know how? Not w/o training. Slow blow and go and flair the last 20 fsw or so, a skill, practiced, can save a life.

 

[Adobo]

Hi Adobo. I'm afraid that's a mischaracterization of the argument. I FULLY agree that more emphasis should be placed on all the things you mentioned, and that they are invaluable skills for every certified diver to know. But some people in the thread were advocating the complete elimination of teaching CESA, not merely deemphasizing it. I believe CESA has its benefits as a last-ditch technique, which is not inconsistent with anything you wrote above.

I think what they are saying is that it seems far too many people neglect learning and becoming proficient at the basics given that they have CESA as their last resort. Here is an example of why they are getting that impression:

Obviously, millions of safe dives are made, world-wide, by divers who have no clue of gas management.

I definitely understand the idea where if we were to take away the notion of CESA, the people would be forced to learn proper gas management.

 

[Gombessa]

That's a strawman entirely in your own head.

I certainly hope so. However, I do think that this forum has a tendency to be a little harsh, especially when analyzing events hypothetically or with the benefit of hindsight.

Stop questioning my motives. They're very simple in that I don't want to do more body recoveries of divers who ran OOA and don't want anyone else to go through that.

Hey, don't take it personally. I'm not targetting you for a hit, I just think this is a debatable topic.

And its fine to teach how to do a direct ascent to the surface. But the situation that should be used for is a lost weightbelt or an error in weighting resulting in an uncontrolled ascent. It shouldn't be taught primarily as a way to deal with an OOA situation.

I wholeheartedly agree with this (notice this is a very different argument than completely eliminating CESA from OW training). And maybe my OW class is different, but CESA was taught as a last-ditch attempt, and was always emphasized as something to avoid when alternate air, buddy breathing, etc. are available. Who said it should be taught as a primary way to deal with OOA?

Well, I've said my piece. I do respect everyone's different views here, and I don't think anyone is going to be convincing anyone else otherwise. So I'll just bow out before this gets too much into a perpetual back and forth between ideologies.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hey, don't take it personally. I'm not targetting you for a hit, I just think this is a debatable topic.

For you this is a debatable topic. For Lamont it is VERY personal ... he's the one who had to tow a dead person to the dock, help her out of her gear, and sit helplessly by watching as the EMT folks pumped bloody froth from her lungs in an unsuccessful attempt to revive her.

It IS personal when you go through something like that ... you end up reviewing every second of your attempted rescue and agonizing, for weeks, over what you might have done differently to save her. It makes you want to do everything in your power to make sure it doesn't happen to someone else.

You're a very new diver to be telling people with hundreds ... or thousands ... more dives than you about "reality". Contemplate for a moment that their reality is based on something other than what the instructor told them, or what they read on some Internet forum.

Try experiencing a bit of reality first ... you will find over time that it rarely matches what the book said it would. And it changes your perception of things.

Please don't consider this a putdown ... we've all been where you are right now. I just wish you wouldn't so readily dismiss what people who've been through a lot more reality than you have are trying to explain to you ... it ain't idealogy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)