Why don't we emphasize cesa more??

[PerroneFord]

Well lemme see,

1. It is customary to break the #1 rule in diving? Don't dive alone. (Solo divers I know you're out there, and I know you train for it and I respect that).

2. If endangering your life by diving solo is part of your job as a DM, I'll be sure to never sign up to do that!

3. Yes, we all make mistakes from time to time. This was not a mistake. This was a series of mistakes caused by complancency, gear convolution, and other factors.

4. I've had several "equipment problems" in my time as a diver. Didn't mean I needed to bolt for the surface. A HP hose failure at 80ft is NOT a cause to bolt for the surface. In fact, a LP hose ruptre, which is far more serious would not cause that kind of response from 80ft. He could have probably breathed that tank with a HP leak for another 5 minutes. And even done a safety stop had he wanted.

The CESA training did EXACTLY what it was designed to do. Suspend rational thought, and start an emergency procedure. Rational thought would have said, gee, I'm at 80ft with 80 cuft of my air left. Let me feather this valve while I get out of here.

As for checking the SPG, had he checked it when he GOT TO THE BOTTOM, he would have seen that his main tank SPG hadn't moved.

What strikes me as curious is that his gear was configured in such a way as to not notice that he was breating the wrong tank. Can you comment at all on how his gear was configured? Usually when I see pony bottles, they are geared so that the hose comes from one direction and the main hose from another. Or the pony is set up on a necklace, while the main one is on a normal hose. Or the pony has a different mouthpiece, or SOMETHING to differentiate it.

Just for the record it is customary for the dive master to go in by himself in NJ to tie the anchor into the wreck. Its part of the job. And you illustrated my point, people do do things wrong from time to time. No one can ever say they made a mistake he went down with wrong reg in mouth began the tie in and then noticed it. The high pressure hose did rupture, (which was an equipment problem). But he was able to get out of the bad situation by knowing how to perform and ESA. So it did what it was designed for

As for checking the SPG when he hit the water the pony still had 3000 psi in it so how would he have known he was using the wriong reg in the first place

 

[edjohnson66]

I agree there were mistakes made there, I never said there weren't all I am is saying is it was good that he was able to use an ESA. I am in agreement with you on that. I was only pointing to a story of a diver that used CESA. I know its not the preferred method. I believe in redundancy and proper techniques. This thread was about emphasizing cesa, and I had an example to justify knowing how to use it.

 

[diver 85]

I think you're drawing entirely the wrong conclusion.

Every single case listed there SHOULD have been prevented by divers using their proper training, gas management and buddy skills. Time needs to be spend on these. Not one of these incidents *needed* a CESA. Spend time focussing on getting the basic skills correct rather than invent another skill that isn't needed in the first place if the basics are done correctly.

If the divers in question fail to execute 3 basic skills correctly why does introducing a 4th (CESA) suddenly mean they'll do that right? Chances are if they cant do an octopus ascent, buddy breathe, carry a redundant air source, read an spg or stay with a buddy they wont be able to perform a CESA either.

When people dived J-Valves CESA had a purpose. There are now so many other methods to get safely to the surface and avoid running out of air its not needed at all. Why waste time training it when teaching OOA ascents, gas management and so on will prevent it ever being needed.

Anyone in the position of "needing" CESA these days has done many many things wrong in the execution of their dive. Address those problems first.

IMO, you are making too many assumptions....There is NO WAY you can 100%, absolutely rely on a buddy system & proper air management to get you to the surface in good health.....Give it up, it's another trick for your bag, what's wrong with knowing as many as possible....Again I'll say, the worst thing that can happen is it might save your life one day, anything wrong with that???

Hopefully you have learned: 'this AIN"T a perfect world.....sometimes **** happens & it's those that know how to properly dispose of **** that make it to the next day'......Now get on to something that really matters, like what color combo to buy for your next mask, fins, & skins outfit........lol........

 

[Gombessa]

The only thing that disturbs me about this thread is the undercurrent that seems to be implying, "if you can't plan your dive perfectly, you don't deserve to reach the surface."

I don't think we're going to change the fact that people, as human beings, will panic under certain circumstances, regardless of training. We're also not going to change the fact that when underwater, the first instinct (in a natural sense) is to bolt for the surface. While I can see the need to train and plan against that, IMO it's idealistic and foolhardy to not account for that and not teach people a safer way to get to the surface in a last-ditch scenario.

 

[timle]

The only thing that disturbs me about this thread is the undercurrent that seems to be implying, "if you can't plan your dive perfectly, you don't deserve to reach the surface."

I don't get that at all. I get and agree with proper training, planning, and protocol can eliminate the need for a CESA. As someone else said cave diving and deco diving would be suicide without that ability.

We're also not going to change the fact that when underwater, the first instinct (in a natural sense) is to bolt for the surface.

Yes we are, thats exactly what training does overrides your instincts when we know there is a safer more survivable alternatives.

teach people a safer way to get to the surface in a last-ditch scenario.

Yeah but its not being described here as a last-ditch scenario. Its being described as
someone's pony bottle, or the best option with a HP leak at 80ft with a full AL80. Have you actually seen an HP leak? They put really really small holes in the HP first stage connection to reduce the ammount of gas that can get through. He could have done a leisurely stroll up from 80 if all that was wrong was an HP hose leak/break/SPG falls off etc.

 

[PerroneFord]

The only thing that disturbs me about this thread is the undercurrent that seems to be implying, "if you can't plan your dive perfectly, you don't deserve to reach the surface."

I don't think we're going to change the fact that people, as human beings, will panic under certain circumstances, regardless of training. We're also not going to change the fact that when underwater, the first instinct (in a natural sense) is to bolt for the surface. While I can see the need to train and plan against that, IMO it's idealistic and foolhardy to not account for that and not teach people a safer way to get to the surface in a last-ditch scenario.

I think there is a contingent here for whom "going to the surface" is not an option. Those divers have had to develop other tools for managing problems underwater, and as a result, now can apply those tools to open water as well. I think that group feels time is better served teaching others how to deal with problems underwater, rather than inducing a panic-stricken rush toward the sky.

Maybe that is idealistic and foolhardy. I don't know.

 

[Gombessa]

Yes we are, thats exactly what training does overrides your instincts when we know there is a safer more survivable alternatives.

That's noble, but also a bit idealistic. Yes, training and experience help a lot, and are the best things you can have on yours side. But you can't eliminate panic 100%, and you can't eliminate unaccounted-for accidents completely. It's unfortunate, but unless you're God, mistakes and accidents do happen, even to the best.

Have you actually seen an HP leak? They put really really small holes in the HP first stage connection to reduce the ammount of gas that can get through. He could have done a leisurely stroll up from 80 if all that was wrong was an HP hose leak/break/SPG falls off etc.

I wasn't speaking to that specific scenario. I assume you could do a leisurely stroll up from 80ft if a sticker unexpectedly peeled off your tank as well, but there are more catastrophic failures, accidents, and bad decisions made despite training to consider as well

 

[Gombessa]

I think there is a contingent here for whom "going to the surface" is not an option. Those divers have had to develop other tools for managing problems underwater, and as a result, now can apply those tools to open water as well. I think that group feels time is better served teaching others how to deal with problems underwater, rather than inducing a panic-stricken rush toward the sky.

Maybe that is idealistic and foolhardy. I don't know.

No disagreement here. Even in OW they said 99% of problems can be solved without surfacing. I just think more knowledge is better than less, and if new divers without the benefit of 3000+ dives are going to find themselves in a pickle (hoestly, who's going to cast the first stone?), it's better that they know how not to get an embolism. I'm not saying it should be an encouraged course of action.

 

[Soggy]

That's noble, but also a bit idealistic. Yes, training and experience help a lot, and are the best things you can have on yours side. But you can't eliminate panic 100%, and you can't eliminate unaccounted-for accidents completely. It's unfortunate, but unless you're God, mistakes and accidents do happen, even to the best.

If you panic, it won't be a CESA, it will be a OOCESA by definition. What makes you think that someone who has failed to follow every other procedure leading up to an accident will be able to follow their training and do a CESA properly?

 

[Gombessa]

If you panic, it won't be a CESA, it will be a OOCESA by definition. What makes you think that someone who has failed to follow every other procedure leading up to an accident will be able to follow their training and do a CESA properly?

I guess the question is where does it end? If that's the logic, why do we bother teaching *any* emergency procedure, since people should first learn to infallibly perform every preventative planning procedure possible, to completely eliminate the possibility of any accident underwater?

Btw, I agree in a full panic we're not talking CESA anymore. But I can see situations where something catastrphic happens and your buddy is out of reach. Also, I can see a situation where a diver thinks "Oh god, I need to get to the surface NOW," bad training or whatever, and is at least able to remember to exhale constantly on the way up.

All things being equal, I just feel it's better to know about it than not.