Why don't we emphasize cesa more??

[jon m]

very interesting....
sometimes i think the more advanced divers forget that at 1 time they also only had a couple dives under their (weight)belt. everyne has to start somewhere. i believe there is no amount of training or classes in the world that can prepare you to be a "safe diver". the argument put forth by advanced(100's to1000's of dives) divers is sound, but unrealistic (IMO). the only thing that can help is diving. it is the best training. all the drills in controlled situations cannot prepare you for the real life "unexpected" nature of an underwater problem. the big difference between divers (not named here) that are "advanced"(not by certs, but by #'s of dives)and myself is "real life" experience. i'm sure all of you have had masks kicked off, regs kicked out, equipment malfunctions,ect.
i practiced CESA 3 itmes in certification. i NEVER would choose that as an option in an OOA. but then again, i NEVER should be OOA. yet, divers do go OOA (for varied reasons). i agree this should n't be the case, but it is. i like the idea of knowing it is possible to do a CESA, and proving it's possible by doing it.(in controlled situations)

 

[Gombessa]

For you this is a debatable topic. For Lamont it is VERY personal ... he's the one who had to tow a dead person to the dock, help her out of her gear, and sit helplessly by watching as the EMT folks pumped bloody froth from her lungs in an unsuccessful attempt to revive her.

I was not aware of that (I think I read it earlier in the thread but didn't attribute it to Lamont), and I'd like to offer an apology to Lamont for any insensitivity that my post may have conveyed.

I definitely respect the experience and dedication of the SCUBA vets (young or old) on this board, and hope to continue learn from them as I gain experience. However, being new to scuba doesn't make me new to life, tragedy, logic, or the water. The point I was making, which some other experienced divers in this thread, including eventually Lamont, have affirmed ("And its fine to teach how to do a direct ascent to the surface. But the situation that should be used for is a lost weightbelt or an error in weighting resulting in an uncontrolled ascent. It shouldn't be taught primarily as a way to deal with an OOA situation") is that a life-saving emergency technique has its place. I feel it shouldn't simply be eliminated from training completely because there are better avenues to pursue--in fact, you won't find me ever arguing against placing more emphasis on undoubtedly safer solutions. But inevitably, at the diver's fault or not, there are situations, like weighting problems or whatnot, that either bring you to the top involuntarily, or make going up appear to be the best or only option, and in those situations you'll have to forgive me as a new diver if I continue to believe that knowing CESA is better than finning up at 120ft/min holding your breath.

But again, I've said too much.
Peace.

 

[lamont]

very interesting....
sometimes i think the more advanced divers forget that at 1 time they also only had a couple dives under their (weight)belt. everyne has to start somewhere. i believe there is no amount of training or classes in the world that can prepare you to be a "safe diver". the argument put forth by advanced(100's to1000's of dives) divers is sound, but unrealistic (IMO).

With 25 dives under my belt I could compute my rock bottom for a dive and could come up with a gas plan for a 0.75 cu ft / min SAC and evaluate how close I was to hitting that plan on the actual dive.

I couldn't have done that on dive #1 because I was too task loaded with buoyancy control, controlling my drysuit and just breathing underwater, etc. But that is why new divers are supposed to stick to 60 fsw or shallower.

 

[jon m]

after reading my own post i too, will elaborate-
i have had a full flood at depth (50') due to snorkle problem and although my first thought was to bolt, i didn't. i have also had my reg kicked out at depth due to my swimming a bit tooo close to my buddy, and recovered it with no issues (almost went to my octo, but didn't have to)
i agree CESA should (almost) never be done. but i think it should be taught (just in case!)
btw- i would be honored to have most(if not all) of you be my buddy, i have so much to learn...

 

[300bar]

I disagree. I'm sorry. Things don't just "happen". Things happen due to a chain of poor decisions without adequate skill or gear to make up the deficit..

Well now I have to disagree,sometimes "things"do just happen.

A few years ago a OW student who just finished his course,went out for his first real dive,He had a brand new(5th dive) Nemrod (sorry Nemrod) reg and octo,at a depth of 13m/45ft he heard a loud bang behind his head and could not get any air anymore.(His 2nd stage hose blew from the 1st stage,it was NOT unscrewed)

One of my DM's was diving with him,but the diver didn't want either to buddy breath or take the alt air from the DM.Don't ask me wy he just didn't.Instead he made a perfect CESA,DM following him told me that his comp.did not show any SLOW when he surfaced,he then dropped(my)weightbelt and then inlated his BC oraly.Former student told me he tryed his alt.air but this was ofcourse not working and he just went for the CESA.

As a PADI instructor I still teach CESA beside gas planning,buddy procedures.
And I glad to.
For he/she who thinks they will never need it,I pray you are right.

 

[Soggy]

Well now I have to disagree,sometimes "things"do just happen.

What you described was a perfect example of a number of problems leading to an unnecessary ascent. From 45ft, sure a CESA is probably ok, but if that same thing had happened towards the end of a 100 ft dive, he could be pretty fizzy. He *should* have gone to his buddy's gas, but instead he blew to the surface. I hope that gets trained out of him as he starts diving deeper.

 

[fire_diver]

One of my DM's was diving with him,but the diver didn't want either to buddy breath or take the alt air from the DM.Don't ask me wy he just didn't.Instead he made a perfect CESA,DM following him told me that his comp.did not show any SLOW when he surfaced,he then dropped(my)weightbelt and then inlated his BC oraly.Former student told me he tryed his alt.air but this was ofcourse not working and he just went for the CESA.

This is exactly what Perrone was talking about. There was no NEED for a CESA. The DM had air to share. If another problem occured and the diver had embolized, he would still be needlessly dead.

comrade stroke

 

[timle]

I haven't even started my cave training but I've completed cavern. 130ft back, 70 feet deep I consider a CESA a nearly useless option.

Knowing to breathe and go slow as you ascend is not a skill just for CESA. Thats the number one thing I was taught in OW class. Never hold your breath.

I can't speak for others but I've got no problems with CESA being taught, but more time should be spent on skills that would avoid CESA. Like the OW guy on his first post cert dive, why did he choose CESA? Would spending more time on air share drills taught him that his buddy was a better choice? "Don't ask me why..." why not? Did you ask him? Maybe do some more air share drills with him?

 

[captain]

Try experiencing a bit of reality first ... you will find over time that it rarely matches what the book said it would. And it changes your perception of things.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bingo you nailed it, but not in the way you intented. Reality is that all the gas planning, all the buddy pairs and all the rest of the things learned and practiced to prevent OOA will not prove effective 100% of the time and divers will go OOA. Reality didn't read the training manual.

 

[Adobo]

One of my DM's was diving with him,but the diver didn't want either to buddy breath or take the alt air from the DM.Don't ask me wy he just didn't.Instead he made a perfect CESA,DM following him told me that his comp.did not show any SLOW when he surfaced,he then dropped(my)weightbelt and then inlated his BC oraly.Former student told me he tryed his alt.air but this was ofcourse not working and he just went for the CESA.

Somehow I struggle with the logic of choosing to go 45 feet for a breath of air when perfectly good gas is right in front of you.

If anybody I dove with were making those kinds of poor choices, I would be deeply concerned about their ability to think through even the most basic issues that may face while diving.