Why don't we emphasize cesa more??

[diver 85]

Yes, con't to teach it....
the worse that will happen it might save your life one day........This is a no brainer....

 

[captain]

You hear this line continuely preached by safety experts and managers in industry, "All accidents are preventable". In theory that may be true but in reality accidents keep happening no matter what the rules, training, procedures are. Accidents by their very nature are unpredictable. We view them in hindsite. We can learn from them to try and avoid a similar one in the future but we have no way of knowing exactly how the furture event will unfold or that whatever training, procedures,etc. we developed from past experience will work to prevent the next. The reality is that things happen unexpectedly and in ways we haven't always planned for. It is best to have all the tools possible and not need them than to have a few and need them all

 

[PerroneFord]

This is a no brainer....

And that friends, is the problem.

 

[lamont]

Let me try to say it again very clearly.

If it were not possible to completely eliminate the possibility of running out of gas and needing to CESA it would be suicidal to do technical diving or cave diving.

Those activities are not actually suicidal and the need to CESA can be completely eliminated from diving by avoiding going OOA to begin with.

That is where the focus needs to be.

If you've got 29 fatalities from OOA in a year, that is 29 cases where training in how to not run OOA could have prevented the accident completely. The focus on CESA training is dealing with the end results of the accident chain after the divers have gotten into an entirely preventable life-or-death situation.

And I've actually pulled someone out of the water who died because she ran OOA and got CAGE on a 10 fsw shoot to the surface (either held breath or laryngospasmed), but there were many opportunities to avoid the OOA well before the dive ever got to that point.

And I'll state it even clearer that I think the focus on CESA at the expense of any mention of gas planning is what is actually killing the people in those DAN reports. In the recovery that I did, the dive plan produced an entirely predictable OOA and the dive itself never should have happened the way it did, going all the way back to the parking lot. Focusing on the last few seconds which caused the traumatic injury is missing the bulk of the accident chain.

 

[fisherdvm]

I think this turned out to be a great discussion on the possibility of never having an OOA situation, at the level of the technical and cave divers - which is also possible with the recreational diver. I was amazed at how complicated and thorough the pre-dive check is for these folks. Certainly something that the recreational diver can learn a thing or two from.

In the same sense, redudant air is possible by finding a good buddy who is not a photographer. Or it is equally affordable to buy a pony tank (Oh, and as bad as wearing pink, is wearing a spare air!).

You are absolutely correct, Lamont, is gas management. I don't think it was taught enough in OW. TS&M had a great link with a simple table for estimating gas requirement, and I was disappointed not having seen anything like it in my OW.

I personally will still rely on the surface as my "pony bottle". But each will chose his own death I guess. I originally has planned a massive heart attack (my cholesterol is in the mid 200's), but now I think it might be an air emboli. But I don't think I'll ever do cave diving or wreck penetration. I might do it just for the experience, but not as a recreational activity.

 

[Soggy]

I personally will still rely on the surface as my "pony bottle".

That's fair, though unnecessary and a sad statement about the quality of diving instruction. I don't know why you would want to swim 60 or 100 feet to an air source when there should be one an arms reach or a fin kick away.

Please, don't ever get into technical diving. I fear that this maneuver is so ingrained in you that you will not be able to train it out.

 

[edjohnson66]

I am a NAUI instructor and teach CESA (ESA), and that is a skill that I have them perform it during the open water check outs. It is controlled from a plattform about 25t feet, and they perform the skill with me holding on to them, but none the less they get to do the skill and get used to the mechanics of it.

 

[String]

I think that is a high enough number to continue focusing on CESA training.

I think you're drawing entirely the wrong conclusion.

Every single case listed there SHOULD have been prevented by divers using their proper training, gas management and buddy skills. Time needs to be spend on these. Not one of these incidents *needed* a CESA. Spend time focussing on getting the basic skills correct rather than invent another skill that isn't needed in the first place if the basics are done correctly.

If the divers in question fail to execute 3 basic skills correctly why does introducing a 4th (CESA) suddenly mean they'll do that right? Chances are if they cant do an octopus ascent, buddy breathe, carry a redundant air source, read an spg or stay with a buddy they wont be able to perform a CESA either.

When people dived J-Valves CESA had a purpose. There are now so many other methods to get safely to the surface and avoid running out of air its not needed at all. Why waste time training it when teaching OOA ascents, gas management and so on will prevent it ever being needed.

Anyone in the position of "needing" CESA these days has done many many things wrong in the execution of their dive. Address those problems first.

 

[edjohnson66]

I agree that you should address those problems first for "needing" cesa, but things happen. I know a very experienced dive (around 30 years) and dives several hundred times a year off NJ. He went over to tie in the anchor into the wreck and accidently went off his pony first. While making the dive he drained the pony and realized what happened and switched to his main tank. Then all of the sudden the high pressure hose ruptured. He did a CESA from about 80 feet. If not for that skill it would have been a completly different situation. Anyone can make a mistake, but the ability to have alternatives is the best thing you can have

 

[String]

There are so many alternatives now that CESA is pointless. Experience breeds complacency quite often. Its a danger for a lot of divers. Its something though they should realise and address. Its not an argument for CESA, its another argument for practicing and refreshing skills.

Again, if someone hasnt done a buddy check in years, not checked their gear, equipment, regulator config, dived with a buddy and so on in years why do you suddenly expect them to remember a CESA if all the above is forgotten?

CESA seems to be pushed in to cover up poor dive planning and poor dive practices. Its not there for any other reason. Training time should be spent solving the root cause rather than inventing potentially dangerous last resort alternatives.