Why don't we emphasize cesa more??

[Adobo]

It is kind of saying, why we need seat belts and air bags, if we should just teach people to drive better.

Okay, you can use that analogy but I think it is not really a good one.

What my posts have been saying, from the very beginning is simply this... you had an experience with your nephew where he seemed to be "incompetent" because he did not know much about cars. He did not know what to do in an emergency situation except slam on the brakes. He winds up in near accidents because of his "incompetence". This thread has been largely about seat belts and airbags. (Actually, personally, I equate the CESA thing to slowing down and jumping out of your car. Both are last options.) No discussion around how to become a good defensive driver.

I'm no expert but I would tend to think that educating the nephew on how to know when his gear is assembled properly, how to do a proper last minute gear check before getting in the water, how to do bubble checks before descending, how to plan the dive so he knows when it is time to turn around and to know when it is time to head up... those are the things that are important. If he does not figure those things out, he will have plenty of practice with CESA.

 

[Adobo]

i agree...

but what if you somehow work yourself into that corner, and haven't thought about or conditioned yourself mentally for an emergency OOA ascent?

my thought is, you teach someone everything to be done in order to avoid a CESA, and then you say, and if it all fails, here's how you do a CESA

I'm not disagreeing with that. But look at this thread. It's >90% about CESA. Now ask yourself, what problem is the OP trying to solve?

 

[fisherdvm]

I'm not disagreeing with that. But look at this thread. It's >90% about CESA. Now ask yourself, what problem is the OP trying to solve?

I think it is >90% about CESA, is because it is about CESA. The thread is, Why don't we emphasize CESA more? It is not about what to do to prevent OOA situation. If it is about how to prevent OOA, then your points are valid. It has nothing to do with my nephew, as I probably will not dive with him again. It is about whether CESA still has a role in diving education.

I am not my nephew's mentor, nor do I care to be. I just invited him to join us on our vacation, and was surprised that he did not know what CESA is, for a newly certified OW diver.

 

[PerroneFord]

fisherdvm, has put a very good point out there.

It is about whether CESA still has a role in diving education

It is *my* belief that it does not. I believe it is a relic from a time when diving with J-Valves and no BCD were prevalent. If your j-valve failed, you dropped your weights, swam up your tank and got on the surface. Decent solution. Today, we have FAR better tools and much more reliable gear. We need to move on with our teaching.

We preach about diving skills and anti-silting and protection of the coral, but still teach flutter and dolphin kicking as primary propulsion techniques. We preach about safety ni the water, but do not teach OW divers the basics of gas management or shooting a bag in the water. We preach about the things you can see underwater, and yet the vast majority of students cannot function if you don't let them use their hands or their feet. They cannot "be still" in the water.

Like the rest of education, what we are getting from basic diving instruction is poor, outdated, and inadequate. Time for some much needed upgrades. There are a few brave souls out there doing something a bit different. I keep hearing whispers about what they are doing. Some are on college campuses. Some are agency affiliated but will not attach to a shop. Some are asking me to get involved and do my "buoyancy from the beginning" workshop with classes.

Diving instruction doesn't have to be crappy.

 

[Adobo]

I think it is >90% about CESA, is because it is about CESA. The thread is, Why don't we emphasize CESA more? It is not about what to do to prevent OOA situation. If it is about how to prevent OOA, then your points are valid. It has nothing to do with my nephew, as I probably will not dive with him again. It is about whether CESA still has a role in diving education.

I am not my nephew's mentor, nor do I care to be. I just invited him to join us on our vacation, and was surprised that he did not know what CESA is, for a newly certified OW diver.

Insufficient gas (12 Cases)
● Three divers ran out of air in a cave and drowned.
● Five divers ran out of gas or became low on gas at the bottom.
● Three divers made unsuccessful emergency ascents and two drowned at the bottom.
● An older diver with a history of heart disease completed a safety stop and surfaced in
rough seas, but without enough gas to inflate his BC, he drowned.
● Three divers were reported to be out-of-air by witnesses or were assumed to have run
out of air by the investigator without supporting evidence.

Equipment problems (7 cases)
● Five divers had BC problems.
● One diver drowned due to inhalation of water from a missing diaphragm seal on his
regulator.
● One diver using surface-supplied air had a knot in the supply hose that may have
contributed to his death by reducing air flow.

There is no way to draw any accurate conclusions from this data. However, what is apparent from what is here is that in only one case was there a SCUBA related drowning due to a regulator failure. Whereas there were 12 fatalities due to running out of gas.

If there is any truth in that, then to me, the answer is not to spend more time learning CESA. The answer is to get ahead of the problem.

 

[fisherdvm]

I think DAN's Mar/Aprl 2007 issue of Alert Diver used the year 2003 as a case in point of OOA management. That is the year of 29 fatalities fro OOA from 153 fatalities. Next year, it might be zero, or it could be 100 from OOA.

12 fatalities in 2006 from OOA, plus 2 from regulator failures, that makes 14 deaths that could benefit from CESA training. You probably can multiply that by 10, if you would count the number that survived the OOA situation by successfully performing CESA.

I think that is a high enough number to continue focusing on CESA training.

 

[Adobo]

fisherdvm, has put a very good point out there.



It is *my* belief that it does not. I believe it is a relic from a time when diving with J-Valves and no BCD were prevalent. If your j-valve failed, you dropped your weights, swam up your tank and got on the surface. Decent solution. Today, we have FAR better tools and much more reliable gear. We need to move on with our teaching.

We preach about diving skills and anti-silting and protection of the coral, but still teach flutter and dolphin kicking as primary propulsion techniques. We preach about safety ni the water, but do not teach OW divers the basics of gas management or shooting a bag in the water. We preach about the things you can see underwater, and yet the vast majority of students cannot function if you don't let them use their hands or their feet. They cannot "be still" in the water.

Like the rest of education, what we are getting from basic diving instruction is poor, outdated, and inadequate. Time for some much needed upgrades. There are a few brave souls out there doing something a bit different. I keep hearing whispers about what they are doing. Some are on college campuses. Some are agency affiliated but will not attach to a shop. Some are asking me to get involved and do my "buoyancy from the beginning" workshop with classes.

Diving instruction doesn't have to be crappy.

Actually, either my poor reading comprehension is getting the better of me again or the original post touches on many topics. Strangely, the original post does not specifically talk about dive education - maybe implied though.

Anyway, his thread. If he wants to focus on how to perfect the "last resort", his prerogative. I personally thought it might have been more interesting to talk about why instructors and dive masters are finding themselves in situations where they have to do a CESA.

 

[Adobo]

I think DAN's Mar/Aprl 2007 issue of Alert Diver used the year 2003 as a case in point of OOA management. That is the year of 29 fatalities fro OOA from 153 fatalities. Next year, it might be zero, or it could be 100 from OOA.

12 fatalities in 2006 from OOA, plus 2 from regulator failures, that makes 14 deaths that could benefit from CESA training. You probably can multiply that by 10, if you would count the number that survived the OOA situation by successfully performing CESA.

I think that is a high enough number to continue focusing on CESA training.

Edit: Can't argue with that logic.

 

[PerroneFord]

Take a gooood look at post #5 in this thread:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=178851


If you could wind back the clock to 5 minutes before this diver went in the water, would you teach him to CESA, or would you give him a quick lesson on gas management?

 

[Soggy]

It is kind of saying, why we need seat belts and air bags, if we should just teach people to drive better.

No, not really.