Why do you have to attend Nitrox classes in order to use Nitrox?

[dschulte]

And this deals with Oxygen under pressure, how?

PV=nRT
Pressure is proportional to concentration. The initial study focused on prolonged exposure to high concentrations, effects are the same as if under pressure the both generate what is known as the metabolic dive reflex. Also hyperoxygenation treatments are conducted in a hyperbaric chamber at depths ranging from 10 to 30 meters, depending on the therapeutic goals.
:monkeydan

 

[gangrel441]

no , mai tai, white russians, cosmopolitans, pina coladas , daiquiri's, mojito's, blue lagoons. We drank alot at university .

As I said...a drinking problem.

On a serious note, yes i meant Muay tai . Seems like almost as good a life as diving, probably alot cheaper too. Few of my mates do Judo, the disciplines they have make me so jealous.

Mentally, yes.

Physically, it can be very hard on the body...to me, diving is much more relaxing, but martial arts has a way of ingraining itself in every aspect of your life and making you better for it...

 

[gangrel441]

That's exactly what we like about it.

My primary motivation to start my training was self-defense, so jutsu was what appealed to me. But I do have a healthy appreciation for do as well...

 

[Thalassamania]

It's the form, the dance, and some of the defense. My boy is ten (we've been at this since he was five). He had a run in with a bully at school a month or so ago, this much heavier boy tried to shove him in the hall and before anyone could really follow what went down the bully was prone with my boy sitting on his back with his arm in a hammer lock. He quietly called for a teacher and when the teacher arrived he apologized to the bully for embarrassing him, as he let him up.

The teacher said she'd never see anything like it. My guy did not get in any trouble whatsoever, which had he been a Karate type would likely have earned him an undeserved suspension. Aikido has its place for us.

 

[verybaddiver]

bah, arguing with a emt , i'm not going to try, my chemistry stopped at a-level, and i didn't do much pulmonary biology in my degree. (I realise I'm not actually arguing).
My mistake was stating that little is known about how the body deals with oxygen, which you have proven me wrong.

I still don't think you will die, without taking a class from a EANx instructor (which you stated :>), but I do believe oxygen toxicity should be taught at beginners level and that EANx should be used from beginners level.

 

[String]

BSAC now does use nitrox from beginner level as of this year. OK so its introduction is a cut down mess but its a start.

 

[Scuba Brian]

 

[Dive-aholic]

Diveaholic, You want to make a bet........I can blur you up so bad you'll not be able to see that elephant in front of you @ 6 ft but you'll be able to smell him........You know what I mean I'm guessing, who should have checked the mix to begin with???....btw, apples & oranges do go together, you ever eat a fruit salad made with them.......

But when I put those glasses on in your office, I will know I can't see with them on and not leave wearing them. I don't know what's in the tank until after I'm convulsing at depth.

and this information requires an instructor?

Where did I say it does?

I took the PADI Nitrox course and don't recall anything in the class that was not covered adequetely in the book. What information do you add to your Nitrox class?

Actually, I add a lot of information that's not in the book to my class...but it you want to know it you'll have to pay me...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Why don't we seperate the need for formal training and the need to require a certification for sales?

I think we can agree that there are things that you should know befor diving ntirox. Some people might prefer, or even need, formal training and another might be able to zip through the book in 15 minutes and have it all nailed. ok, so you need to know some stuff and formal training is one way to learn it.

Now the liability,

I'm not a lawyer but I can tell you for a fact that I buy all my helium, Oxygen and argon without showing a certification from a gas supplier who doesn't know or care anything about diving. He'll custom blend any gas mix that I'm willing to pay for...yep, I could buy pre-mixed nitroc or trimix...no problem. He knows about welding but he doesn't care if I do or not. He just trades gas fo money. He provides gas that meets the specs he claims it meets and if he failed in that regard I might be tempted to hold him responsible.

Why is a dive shop different? One reason is that the agencies and the equipment manufacturers require that you offer training, breathing gas and equipment in order to call yourself a dive shop. Where do you get your insurance? Usually through an insurance carrier that the agency has cut a deal with and that insurance company requires you to follow the standards of the agency. But...what if I wasn't a dive shop? What if I sold gas like the industrial gas supplier and baught my insurance from his insurance company? What if I sold dive equipment but didn't bother being associated with any certification agency? Maybe I even decide not to offer training at all? Now, I don't need underwater liability and I can insure my business and retail facility through any insurance carrier who might insure any other retail business. Dive gear is just stuff. It can be and is sold just like "stuff" by lots of businesses. Gas is just gas and can be sold and marketed as gas.

There's no need to tie yourself to an agency, their rules or their insurance company, if you don't want to. That's espacially true if you don't need underwater liability insurance.

The economics? Lots of shops do lose money on gas fills and classes. The agency, however, absolutely does make money on every certification you sell and they are the one who sets the requirements. The shop is just doing what they're told to do.

 

[MikeFerrara]

How can a shop lose money on gas fills?

It's really pretty easy. All it takes is to be in an area where the volume of gas sold doesn't cost justify a business selling gas. Why would a dive shop bother having a fill station then? That's easy too. The manufacturers won't give you a dealership unless you are a full service shop and part of that is providing breathing gas. The compressor is a requirement imposed by someone else and as a dive shop owner you don't have the freedom to determin feasibility for yourself. If you want to buy those regs from scubapro you MUST have a compressor whether you sell any gas or not. If you want dive shop insurance through the PADI insurance carrier, you must be a PADI dive shop. In order to be one of those, you MUST offer breathing gas whether anyone is buying it or not. Oh, and now you are also required to only sell gas to those with a diving certification for that gas. Does it really rpotect the diver or the shop? It certainly protects the agency by insuring a market for their certifications but I doubt it really does anything for anyone else.

When I owned a dive shop, the primary use of my fill station was to fill student tanks for pool sessions. Unfortunately the fill was provided as part of the class and more unfortunate was the fact that I lost money on the class. There you go...a loss leader that exists to support another loss leader. All that work and equipment was there for one reason and that was to sell some equipment and the margin on the equipment needed to cover everything else. The compressor was just part of my "cost of sales" on the equipment I sold. In the time I owned a dive shop, I didn't come close to selling enough gas to even pay for the initial investment in equipment...never mind the expensive retail space that the fill station occupied, the insurance, maintenance, quarterly gas analysis or the labor to stand there and fill a tank.

The agencies and the manufacturers understand the economics at play here. I think lots of us here understand it too. It's some of the poor dumb dive shop owners who just don't seem to have any idea what's going on and who's calling the shots or why.