Why do so many poorly skilled divers...

[VooDooGasMan]

Diving has advanced tremendously, The teaching Has a big percentage of instructors that were givin the wrong impression about how to make a living, some are still fooled just here in the past year. Some that are already half way through the system thought they would still give it a shot.
The students training suffered, As a result here on the puget sound a diver can move up the ladder with specialty certs, Rescue, DM, AI, in trade to help with classes.
The instructor cheats himself on con-ed income to quicky spit out a DM to stay in standards with cert agencey.
When the DM goes to another Instructor, Cause his is all done with diving, the new instructor has to actually teach him again.
The other Impression is to have a class, Aow them, get them singed up for a trip. With the deals you get on air miles, dive resorts, IT'S HARD TO GET A FREE TRIP ANY MORE.

I see all the time on here whos a good instructor, When they talk to him get his INST#
call cert organization, lenght of time, track record of getting cert paperwork in, any complaints. Most people know personality and pass it on, but responsible and proffesional is what will change the diving education.

 

[scubafool]

OK guys, I just happened upon a rescue class in progress up at Blue Springs, and the emergency response aspects of it appeared very useful.

Blue Springs, Orange City? I thought that it was closed for the winter?

Sorry for the hijack.

 

[Stu S.]

Blue Springs, Orange City? I thought that it was closed for the winter?

Sorry for the hijack.

Maybe we have seen each other up there at the springs.

This class was before it closed, perhaps October. The instructor, I believe from Daytona, was going over the decision making process for how to respond in a rescue situation. We all learned to do the buddy tow and the like, but this was teaching a sytematic way to respond. The information he presented was clear, brief and useful.

Hopefully better viz up there next year.

Stu

 

[offthewall1]

So am I to understand that you are a shop owner who allows uncertified divers to dive with you or that you fill their tanks? I'm just curioius if you've had any experience with legal issues regarding this. I'll be the first to recognize that there is no law requiring SCUBA certification - and that some of the best divers I know started diving before the idea of certification was introduced.

Our lawyers however, and most of the lawyers and insurance companies which now control the dive industry have stated they will not support (cover) instructors or shops who fill tanks for uncertified divers should a problem arise.

Are there any lawyers out there or does anyone know of any case law where this has been addressed?

In 2003, Leisure Trends did a market research study on interest in scuba diving in the general public. In the course of that study, they obviously discovered some subgroup of all of the study panel that were already scuba divers. Of those people that identified themselves as scuba divers, they attempted to identify the "active participants", or those that had been scuba diving at least once in the past year.

They asked these "active scuba divers" which certification agency they trained through. The answer is very instructive..............

A full 59.9% of "active scuba divers" in the Leisure Trends survey ARE NOT certified by a scuba certification agency! That mirrors the statistics of the walk-in customers in my store. Many of them dive weekly, but have never taken a scuba certification class.

Phil Ellis

 

[Thalassamania]

So am I to understand that you are a shop owner who allows uncertified divers to dive with you or that you fill their tanks? I'm just curious if you've had any experience with legal issues regarding this. I'll be the first to recognize that there is no law requiring SCUBA certification - and that some of the best divers I know started diving before the idea of certification was introduced.

Our lawyers however, and most of the lawyers and insurance companies which now control the dive industry have stated they will not support (cover) instructors or shops who fill tanks for uncertified divers should a problem arise.

Are there any lawyers out there or does anyone know of any case law where this has been addressed?

My understanding is that if you sell air fills to all comers, regardless of "certification," you are liable for nothing more than the suitability of the product for the use intended, but if you determine the qualification of your customers to use the product (e.g., check for certification) you are taking on, at least in part, liability for the suitability of the customer's training to use the product that you sell them.

 

[fisherdvm]

I have an anology to this DM mill with the ACLS certification program that has gone from a huge challenge 15 years ago, to a meer pay and you get your card event.

I attended a local ACLS recert program about 3 months ago, with the new AHA, amercian heart association 2005 criteria - we had open book testing. Group ran megacode - where most people were not tested, and the class truncated from 4 hours to 2! Most of the folks never cracked open the book, despite it being completely revised.

It is for the money that even the AHA allow this stuff to happen. I called them several times, and they said, deal with the local director (who is the instructor's father)....

But, I am sure the bad DM's are just a drop in the bucket, and most working DM's are likely conscientious and dedicated.

 

[MikeFerrara]

My understanding is that if you sell air fills to all comers, regardless of "certification," you are liable for nothing more than the suitability of the product for the use intended, but if you determine the qualification of your customers to use the product (e.g., check for certification) you are taking on, at least in part, liability for the suitability of the customer's training to use the product that you sell them.

That's my understanding as well. The more responsibility you take, the more you have.

I always point out that industrial gas suppliers will sell you any gas or custom blend that you want with no knowledge or interest in how you are going to use it. They just trade gas for money. I think about all they could be held liable for is the wuality of the gas.

The dive industry insistance on a certification card seems to be aimed at selling certifications. The insurance company requires it because it's a policy that's usually negotiated by the agency.

 

[Thalassamania]

It's once again the agencies' desire to sell C-cards by using cards as an access credential, regardless of what is actually in the best interests of the shop.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

In 2003, Leisure Trends did a market research study on interest in scuba diving in the general public. In the course of that study, they obviously discovered some subgroup of all of the study panel that were already scuba divers. Of those people that identified themselves as scuba divers, they attempted to identify the "active participants", or those that had been scuba diving at least once in the past year.

They asked these "active scuba divers" which certification agency they trained through. The answer is very instructive..............

A full 59.9% of "active scuba divers" in the Leisure Trends survey ARE NOT certified by a scuba certification agency! That mirrors the statistics of the walk-in customers in my store. Many of them dive weekly, but have never taken a scuba certification class.

Phil Ellis

Did you do your own research to back up this statement? Maybe you're right, and I have no idea about how it's like in the US with this. But here it's rather uncommon to find "divers" without a certificate. More demanding diving in cold waters, with dry suits, may have contributed to less "cert-cheaters" here. I suppose anyone could easily buy gear and do shore diving in Florida without much training for all I know.

BUT, when I meet people who don't know me, and conversation turns over to scuba diving (strange... ). A great many people get off stating that yes, they dive. But when it comes to it further down the conversation, it's something they did once, in the Red Sea on holiday, or perhaps with a friend in the lake in their younger days, once... Are they "divers"? Not really. Actually, I meet people who have a PADI certificate even, who are not "divers". If one makes it through an OWD class and then does nothing about it for a couple of years, then one isn't a "diver" either. Hopefully some of these may end up taking up our hobby somewhere further down the line. But few does. So wether or not a person has a certificate isn't much a a measure of how much a "diver" he is. And if a great many certified people aren't really divers, then many of those who have tried diving without a certificate aren't either. I have yet to get to know about an avid diver withouth a certificate though, so your findings seems rather peculiar to me. But I'm not where you are, so...

 

[24940]

59.9% really surprises me. Even at the loose definition of active being set at one dive in the last year, I don't buy it. On the other hand, 40% is about the rate for transitioning Try SCUBA to OW class. By definition, the 60% doing Try Scuba only are active divers?

I have met a few, but I've met more who were simply posers. 60%? That doesn't seem right.