Why did Horse Collar BC's fade away?

[jadairiii]

Have you ever thought you should just throw some things away and do so and then go retrieve them from the trash? And just cannot let them go even knowing full well they will never be used again?

I have a Farallon horse collar BC, my original At-Pac, including the wing, 2 outer covers for the wing, 2 Shells for the At-Pac, a ScubaPro back pack (from the BCP). And that is just BC's, not all the other stuff I cant let go of.

But, I have thrown some old stuff away, and a week later, NEEDED IT!!!

 

[Waterwulf]

I will have to take issue with this statement. I started using a back mounted BC in 1977, and since that time have used it exclusively for all of my diving. On certain occasions I have had to spend some quality time drifting, in very rough water, in the gulf stream. I have never experienced my wing pushing my face in the water to drown me. So I will "deny" your statement. But that is only 46 years of using a wing, maybe I need to dive it longer to experience the issues you discuss?

Yeah, maybe you should dive it longer to understand that if the flotation is on your back, it WILL turn you over face first into the water if you let it. That's common sense and everybody that plays in the water knows it! Let the Lifeguard see you put the flotation on your kids back and see what happens! Just because yours hasn't yet only means you haven't let it, not that it won't! But hey! Maybe you should try going unconscious to give it a real test?

I linked here to U.S Navy tests that showed that every single back or jacket type BCD. drowned it's wearer if they were unconscious. On the other hand, every single Horse Collar type saved it's wearer from drowning if they were unconscious. Every. Single. One! Show me something that says different! This test was from 1980 so you have over forty years to look for something that says different.

You can make a lot of claims about which type is better or not for this reason or that and that's fine. I may be wrong about my statement: "A Horse Collar Buoyancy Compensator will not drown an unconscious person but a jacket or back type will". So go ahead and prove me wrong! I linked to an real set of tests conducted in a controlled manner. Do the same! Show something different!

Show us some tests conducted in a scientific and controlled manner that proves that a back or jacket type BC will not drown an unconscious diver. Otherwise, it's just Uncle Joe said or I have a friend of a cousin of an old ...etc. etc. If you're unconcious and not wearing a lot of weight on your ankles to hold you upright on the surface or there is outside no intervention, you will drown. Prove otherwise!?

 

[David Haas]

Like Nemrod and jadairiii I also started using a back mounted BCD around 1977 with a yellow and blue stripe Seatec (maybe it was sold by Seaquest) back mount wing. Previously I used a Seaquest front mounted horse collar and even with rubber crotch and waist straps just hated the thing......

The only way a back wing "pushes" your face in the water is if you're over weighted and need to blow the thing up full. A little puff to keep you comfy waiting for the boat and like Nemrod says I can lay back like I'm in an easy chair.

Waterwulf, we're glad you love diving a horse collar but you won't be convincing oh, about 99.999999% of divers to go back to them for sport scuba.

Dive whatever you like and enjoy the underwater world

DH

Below is me diving at a Lake Erie Marina in Ohio. This is in winter, March in 35F water for 7 hours a day playing commercial steel sheet wall inspection diver No BCD, no octopus, just a drysuit, backpack and weight belt.

I don't do this kind if crap anymore !!!! LOL......

 

[jadairiii]

I linked here to U.S Navy tests that showed that every single back or jacket type BCD. drowned it's wearer if they were unconscious. On the other hand, every single Horse Collar type saved it's wearer from drowning if they were unconscious. Every. Single. One!

Did this USN test show how the unconscious diver was able to inflate his/her horse collar bc? I would have to assume it would, being scientific and all......I'd be interested to know how they did, for future reference.

Understand, I've heard this argument since 1976, one would assume the beaches and shorelines would be littered with drowned divers wearing back and or jacket BC's. If you are really interested in scientific data, link some study on deaths attributed directly to the use of a back/jacket bc.

 

[Nemrod]

I think the South going Zaxes have met the North going Zaxes.



Nobody in the industry or at least me care anything about the USN lifejacket tests when it comes to the BC functionality. We seem stuck on this life jacket thing and a BC is not and never was intended to be a life jacket. As has been discussed, the purpose of a BC is to act as a hub to unify the scuba kit and diver as primary function and secondary functions are buoyancy and trim, separate but related things.

The Navy has different priorities for their swimmers. In my next life I am going to ask God to set me on course to be a Navy diver or deck swabber or whatever they might let me do but I do not think anytime in this life I will be tasked with clearing a mine field or obstruction to enable a landing of forces. At least I hope not. But in such case, if the officer in charge hands me a horse collar and tells me to put it on I will say Yes Sir, Sir! Otherwise I will be grabbing my OxyCheq wings.

 

[jadairiii]

Am I the South Zax or the North Zax?

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Did this USN test show how the unconscious diver was able to inflate his/her horse collar bc? I would have to assume it would, being scientific and all......I'd be interested to know how they did, for future reference.

Understand, I've heard this argument since 1976, one would assume the beaches and shorelines would be littered with drowned divers wearing back and or jacket BC's. If you are really interested in scientific data, link some study on deaths attributed directly to the use of a back/jacket bc.

Well, if you’ll look at the “Accidents and Incidents” part of ScubaBoard, you’ll see people making inadvertent buoyant ascents from depth, which can (and have) led to air embolism and/or decompression sickness. People getting to the surface can be conscious for a few minutes with these barotrauma injuries, but then pass out. That is time enough to inflate a BCD.

You will note that I discussed a 1974 incident whereby we (my buddy and I) were picked up by the Coast Guard. We had thought about exiting at Whale Cove, but decided against it when a wave broke all the way across the cove. Well, when we got out, met up with our girl friends, and left the Coast Guard station, we went to a restaurant above Whale Cove. That restaurant had a great view of the cove from above, and we found that the entire cove was covered with logs from recent floods. Had we decided to exit into the cove, there was a great possibility of us being hit, and possible be knocked unconscious by those logs. In that case, both of us had front-mount vests inflated (and no weight belts). Previous pool tests (yes, I did that and published results in NAUI News) indicates that without a front-mount vest or BCD, the likelihood of us staying face-up was not there. You need that buoyant moment force in front to roll the diver face-up, and having a steel scuba cylinder on your back helps (single 72 or, in my case, twin steel 42s during that incident).

SeaRat

 

[Waterwulf]

Did this USN test show how the unconscious diver was able to inflate his/her horse collar bc? I would have to assume it would, being scientific and all......I'd be interested to know how they did, for future reference.

Understand, I've heard this argument since 1976, one would assume the beaches and shorelines would be littered with drowned divers wearing back and or jacket BC's. If you are really interested in scientific data, link some study on deaths attributed directly to the use of a back/jacket bc.

Do your own research! I posted the link here for all to read. I'll do it again just for you!

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA084407.pdf

Furthermore, it's not an argument although some seem to be trying to turning it into one. A few people here seem to think that ridicule and scorn are appropriate answers to to a question they know little about. Maybe to disguise their own ignorance? I asked a question. That's all. If it upsets you, go away! I never tried to talk anybody into using one but I have been contacted by a few people from this board about wanting more info on them.

Regarding the unconscious diver inflating his own HCBC: If you are unable to comprehend that it was a series of tests done in a controlled manner, then you're not even qualified to be in this discussion!!! I'm pretty sure the U.S. Navy didn't make a diver go unconscious to do the tests! Duh! Maybe they just pretended to be unconscious and another diver popped their inflator? Gee! Ya reckon?

I fully agree that a modern BCD is a hub, a central mounting point for most of the other gear that a diver has with him. It's easier to train people on and easier to put on. Those three things make it a better choice for most divers. Those three things are why the Horse Collar BC was pushed aside. But in the water, a modern BCD can not do anything better than a Horse Collar (once it's on the diver) except kill you! Prove otherwise if it matters to you! If it doesn't matter, then why are you still here?

 

[Tribal]

But in the water, a modern BCD can not do anything better than a Horse Collar (once it's on the diver) except kill you!

I’m not old enough to have them experienced.
How are they to carry a few stages and scooters? Isn’t it annoying for your long hose?

 

[Nemrod]

I’m not old enough to have them experienced.
How are they to carry a few stages and scooters? Isn’t it annoying for your long hose?

I have done exactly this, carried an alternate air (30cf) bottle (buddy bottle) slung left and run with a scooter. The long hose is not a problem either. The HCBC goes on under the scuba harness. The scuba harness can have all of the D rings a standard rigged Hog harness (with wing/BP) would have including a crotch strap and scooter ring and be used in exactly the same way. It really is not a problem at all. And the long hose, either a 40 inches under the arm (streamlined open water) or a 60 inches wrapped, work just fine with a HCBC.