why did GUE , DIR take so long to adopt sidemount.

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Status
Not open for further replies.


There is no "problem" with independent tanks. The only problem is with people who do not understand the merits and limitations and how to use such a system accordingly.



How about purging the regs before breathing them? I'm sure that would blow all the crud right out. And as you may know, it also helps to exhale before breathing.
If in doubt, you can do both. Or you could choose to delay the gas switch altogether.
Either way, a non issue.



Oh no, not again. This horrible contraption has been discussed and beaten to death so many times already.
Go ahead son, swap 'em out in a cargo hold full of high octane aviation gasoline (Hoki Maru wreck in Truk). Even a momentary switch to a necklaced back-up reg in a long hose contingency gas donation will result in an inadvertent taste of the toxic brew (or worse, an outright caustic burn to the mouth).
 
Go ahead son, swap 'em out in a cargo hold full of high octane aviation gasoline (Hoki Maru wreck in Truk). Even a momentary switch to a necklaced back-up reg in a long hose contingency gas donation will result in an inadvertent taste of the toxic brew (or worse, an outright caustic burn to the mouth).

I think the better question is WHY would anyone dive in that environment. There is nothing underwater I want to see that is worth potentially exposing myself to any kind of "toxic soup"...and I dive in Lake Ontario :) I mean seriously if a regulator swap is risky find somewhere else to dive.
 
Just as the title says. I have heard that for years the GUE, DIR associations adamantly opposed the idea of having two separate cylinders without a manifold for cave diving (side mount). I have also heard that the dive community -Way Back- (don't know if it was GUE) opposed the doubles set up with manifold. Any long time divers remember the controversy and watch things come back full circle in regards to sidemount?

I don't know if that was the intention, but the OP seems to suggest that something has recently changed... has it, or am I just misreading the post?
 
Go ahead son, swap 'em out in a cargo hold full of high octane aviation gasoline (Hoki Maru wreck in Truk). Even a momentary switch to a necklaced back-up reg in a long hose contingency gas donation will result in an inadvertent taste of the toxic brew (or worse, an outright caustic burn to the mouth).

I really don't see the reasoning here? I spent 10 days in Truk about 3 years ago. I did the tour on the Odyssey as well as did some land based dives. I even got to dive the Oite. You could smell / taste the fuel oil / aviation gasoline and I sure wasn't going to hang around in that crap. I don't see why you would switch a reg while in that mess unless it is an emergency. In that case what is the difference between sm & bm? Oh I was sidemount with independent doubles the whole trip and never had any issues. I personally think the UTD manifold is a solution in search of a problem. If it is what you want to dive go ahead but I really don't see the need for it. I think it creates more problems than it solves. I generally find that the simpler something is the better it is.
 
I really don't see the reasoning here? I spent 10 days in Truk about 3 years ago. I did the tour on the Odyssey as well as did some land based dives. I even got to dive the Oite. You could smell / taste the fuel oil / aviation gasoline and I sure wasn't going to hang around in that crap. I don't see why you would switch a reg while in that mess unless it is an emergency. In that case what is the difference between sm & bm? Oh I was sidemount with independent doubles the whole trip and never had any issues. I personally think the UTD manifold is a solution in search of a problem. If it is what you want to dive go ahead but I really don't see the need for it. I think it creates more problems than it solves. I generally find that the simpler something is the better it is.
The Hanakawa Maru has deteriorating/leaking AvGas drums in the cargo holds; you can see the gasoline layer in bright ambient light, but sometimes can inadvertently swim thru the layer while traversing a dark corridor. The most concentrated and hazardous places are the upper corners of enclosed bulkheads where undiluted AvGas percolates up into & collects (I've suffered a caustic chemical 2nd degree wrist burn by accidentally sticking my hand up through this stuff on the Hoki Maru).

Z-system sidemount was a good configuration for penetration & traverse of the I-169 Submarine, and the engine room of the Fumizuki Destroyer. Backmount doubles barely fits now to penetrate the Oite Destroyer engine room, and with further collapse of the Aikoku Maru's decks, its engine room may soon only be accessible by sidemount at nearly 60m deep. . .

---------- Post added December 13th, 2015 at 09:04 PM ----------

Just as the title says. I have heard that for years the GUE, DIR associations adamantly opposed the idea of having two separate cylinders without a manifold for cave diving (side mount). I have also heard that the dive community -Way Back- (don't know if it was GUE) opposed the doubles set up with manifold. Any long time divers remember the controversy and watch things come back full circle in regards to sidemount?

I don't know if that was the intention, but the OP seems to suggest that something has recently changed... has it, or am I just misreading the post?
No . . .it's just the same ol' arguments pro & con of Manifolded Doubles vs Independent Doubles, and how it also applies in the recent trend towards Sidemount configuration:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/te...solation-valves-full-independent-doubles.html
 
However, here are some cons I see in sidemount:

1. increases task loading the first few times you dive it with the constant gas switching. Someone learning how to cave dive is already tasked loaded enough, and really doesn't need the extra bit of task loading involved with learning sidemount at the same time.

Task loading is increased in any unfamiliar equipment. The same is true for a diver first transitioning to backmounted doubles from a jacket BCD.

IMHO, beginning technical / cave divers are better served diving backmount, OR mastering sidemount before undertaking technical training.

I agree wholeheartedly. The diver should be well experienced in their configuration before adding further stressors in an overhead environment.

Luckily, you can do stand-alone sidemount courses and spend ample time diving sidemount on all of your recreational dives... potentially years in advance of reaching overhead diving levels.

Backmount doubles are much harder to source training for - unless in conjunction with a entry-level level course. Yes, there is 'intro-do-doubles' training, but this is harder to source and, often, not an agency sanctioned certification course.

With basic sidemount training, you can literally do ALL of your subsequent dives on sidemount - amassing significant kit experience and familiarity. That's not so common with backmount doubles.

2. Is less efficient. When I dive backmount I can be suited up and in the water in a fraction of the time it takes when diving sidemount (how many trips do you make to the water?). Ditto for breaking gear down.

Personally, I think that's just an equipment familiarity and/or procedural issue.

I never have a problem being first in the water by a margin. When it comes to getting back on the boat - I'm normally drinking a coffee whilst backmount divers are still struggling to remove weight-belts chin-deep...

Regards 'trips to the water'... sidemount gives the option to 'spread the load' over multiple trips. That doesn't, however, mean you are forced to multiple trips.

3. Is frequently taught in a sloppy style that leads to damage to caves. Ever notice those twin furrow trails in clay floors? Look at the antenna that are sticking out from under your armpits to understand how they happened.

Bad instruction causes bad divers causes bad consequences.

Bad instructors wear poodle jackets, backmount doubles and sidemount. So do good instructors.

But these are just my opinion, and while I think newer technical / cave divers will be better served by learning backmount first...

If a diver will progress into technical/overhead diving, then they are best served by 'beginning with the end in mind'... making the earliest possible transition into the kit they plan to use in the future.

I see little efficiency in transitioning from jacket to BP&W doubles.... then later transitioning again into sidemount. That's two transitions, rather than one.

It also means that the diver is denied an earliest opportunity to begin developing intimate familiarity with the kit... and forces them to subsequently manage a transition into unfamiliar kit when they are already diving at a technical/overhead level.

Where do you guys are getting this from? Does anyone actually teach this or is this from some youtube video?

From a certain agencies' technical sidemount instructor manual.... :wink:

Sidemount reg replace.PNG

How about purging the regs before breathing them? I'm sure that would blow all the crud right out. And as you may know, it also helps to exhale before breathing.
If in doubt, you can do both. Or you could choose to delay the gas switch altogether.
Either way, a non issue.

It's a non issue simply because moving through POL (petrol/oil/lubricant) contaminated water is going to have a major impact on your breathing equipment - whether it's in your mouth or not.

The last time I experienced this was in backmount. The wreck had burped some diesel. My regulator wasn't removed from my mouth for the duration. The reek of diesel still made me gag and wretch for the remainder of the dive. It permeated everything. The primary was as badly contaminated as the secondary... and took just as much cleaning/servicing/maintenance to resolve as the (unbreathed/exposed) secondary did. My mask was a written off - stinking and discolored. Everything else stunk like a gas station forecourt for months afterwards.

Kev used this spurious example through allegiance to an otherwise hard to justify sidemount equipment solution. It shows two things: Firstly, he's short of ways to defend a ludicrous sidemount manifold gimmick; and secondly, he's hypothesizing and has never personally experienced POL contamination inside a wreck.
 
Last edited:
It's a non issue simply because moving through POL (petrol/oil/lubricant) contaminated water is going to have a major impact on your breathing equipment - whether it's in your mouth or not.

The last time I experienced this was in backmount. The wreck had burped some diesel. My regulator wasn't removed from my mouth for the duration. The reek of diesel still made me gag and wretch for the remainder of the dive. It permeated everything. The primary was as badly contaminated as the secondary... and took just as much cleaning/servicing/maintenance to resolve as the (unbreathed/exposed) secondary did. My mask was a written off - stinking and discolored. Everything else stunk like a gas station forecourt for months afterwards.

Kev used this spurious example through allegiance to an otherwise hard to justify sidemount equipment solution. It shows two things: Firstly, he's short of ways to defend a ludicrous sidemount manifold gimmick; and secondly, he's hypothesizing and has never personally experienced POL contamination inside a wreck.
Nothing "spurious" or "specious" about it at all Andy --You just confirmed the nastiness of being exposed to petroleum tainted waters inside real shipwrecks by your own anecdote. No need for me to swap out & alternate between regulators in foul water: that's your problem, not mine. Go ahead Andy, jump in at the Olongapo River Bridge right there where you are and show everybody how comfortable you are swapping out regs!:rofl3:

If I can keep breathing my primary reg on bottom gas for as long as possible while egressing a wreck for cleaner waters before switching out to a deco gas, then so much the better for me. . . (Not hard justifying that at all).
 
With basic sidemount training, you can literally do ALL of your subsequent dives on sidemount - amassing significant kit experience and familiarity. That's not so common with backmount doubles.

But that is the problem,it isn't always the best configuration and doesn't work in all situations, and this is from someone that has 15 years of sidemount experience. When I hear an instructor that pushes only one configuration, it makes we wonder if the student is being left with the best experience, because I feel like the best served diver has been exposed to backmount and sidemount. In a previous post I mentioned where certain configurations would work best, this could be in a wreck or a cave. To me the ideal diver will have been exposed to both, and have the training to make both systems work. Hence, you will have a sidemount only diver, that may one day want to use backmount, and not have a clue how to perform emergency procedures etc.
 
No . . .it's just the same ol' arguments pro & con of Manifolded Doubles vs Independent Doubles, and how it also applies in the recent trend towards Sidemount configuration:

No, this is just not true. Being able to identify a problem quicker AND being able to feather pretty comfortablely for a while is a MAJOR advantage that SM has over independent doubles. I'm surprised that people still bring this up even though it's obliously not true.

I agree with almost every SM diver on the planet that this Z-System is a horrible idea. How wants to keep open and close their tanks? That's MORE taskload than just switching regs. And that's not even the only issue with that thing.
 
When I hear an instructor that pushes only one configuration, it makes we wonder if the student is being left with the best experience....

Kinda ironic given the subject agency of this thread :rofl3:

To me the ideal diver will have been exposed to both, and have the training to make both systems work. Hence, you will have a sidemount only diver, that may one day want to use backmount, and not have a clue how to perform emergency procedures etc.

Well, that's simply an issue of diving beyond your training and/or experience.

I wouldn't push only one configuration; but for the average diver with limited experience-building time in the water per annum, I'd say pick one system early and stick with it. Jack of all trades, master of none. Overhead and technical diving requires masters.

In addition, for the average diver with limited experience-building time in the water per annum - the system with the most flexibility to be utilized on all of their dives; home and vacation, rec and tec, overhead and open water, offers the greatest potential opportunity to develop the level of ingrained equipment familiarity, skillfulness and comfort necessary for progression into advanced levels of diving.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom