Why can't you make a living as an Instructor?

[TSandM]

You know, another thing that hits me on this topic is that someone who signs up for guitar lessons knows what a well-played guitar sounds like, and can evaluate whether his instructor is at least moderately competent with the instrument. It's the same with swimming, riding, skiing . . . you can look at your instructor and see if he looks awkward or graceless, or if the horses are unhappy (although a lot of poor trainers fool their students).

But with diving, who has an image of what a "good diver" should look like or aspire to, when he signs up for a class? I really enjoy the fact that Peter shows the 5thD-X videos to his students as an example, not of what they will achieve by the end of the class, but what they should aspire to be able to do. But before they signed up for the class, they would have no way at all to know whether Peter's skills are good, bad or indifferent -- or whether what they are asked to do in their class is the maximum possible, or a lowest common denominator. I think when prospective students think of diving, they don't think of divers . . . they think of reef vistas, colorful fish, sharks, and rays. I know that I didn't have any mental picture of a good diver when I started, neither visually nor any idea of what good diving would FEEL like. If you have no idea what the end product should be, you have no way of knowing if the person you have hired can get you there.

 

[rongoodman]

+1. I never saw my instructors hold a flat hover, do a back kick, or helicopter turn in my first several classes. The only reason I knew such things could be done was that I had discovered ScubaBoard, and from here, the GUE and cave diving communities. Seeing Ed Hayes, a local GUE instructor, in the water for the first time was a true revelation.

 

[Thalassamania]

You know, another thing that hits me on this topic is that someone who signs up for guitar lessons knows what a well-played guitar sounds like, and can evaluate whether his instructor is at least moderately competent with the instrument. It's the same with swimming, riding, skiing . . . you can look at your instructor and see if he looks awkward or graceless, or if the horses are unhappy (although a lot of poor trainers fool their students).

But with diving, who has an image of what a "good diver" should look like or aspire to, when he signs up for a class? I really enjoy the fact that Peter shows the 5thD-X videos to his students as an example, not of what they will achieve by the end of the class, but what they should aspire to be able to do. But before they signed up for the class, they would have no way at all to know whether Peter's skills are good, bad or indifferent -- or whether what they are asked to do in their class is the maximum possible, or a lowest common denominator. I think when prospective students think of diving, they don't think of divers . . . they think of reef vistas, colorful fish, sharks, and rays. I know that I didn't have any mental picture of a good diver when I started, neither visually nor any idea of what good diving would FEEL like. If you have no idea what the end product should be, you have no way of knowing if the person you have hired can get you there.

Lynne, you are right, but are being too nice and thus ducking a goodly part of the issue. A fair number of the instructors I see out there are really rather poor in the water and frankly are lacking in basic diving knowledge. The can't hold a stop (so the preach no-D diving), they can't handle big surf (so they declare it too dangerous), they have lousy rescue skills (so they pretend the bare minimum "agency" rescue course is adequate), they can't work complex decompression table problems (so they denegrate tables and prop computers), they know almost nothing about gear (and so preach that what they dive with is the best), etc., etc., etc. The poor student doesn't know any better, and unfortunately neither does the poor instructor, who is basically just repeating the same crap that he or she was subjected to at the hands of the similarly incompetent Course Director, Shop Owner or teaching peer group. I've seen this syndrome time and time again.

 

[herbdb]

Your average instructor teaches recreational level courses. They should teach safety stops, but decompression stops and complex decompression problems fall outside of what they should be teaching. Most instructors are not certified to teach tech level courses.

You are over-reaching to expect it unless they are teaching more advanced levels. An instructor pilot teaching basic students doesn't need to be able to pylon race or do aerobatics. Most divers will never obtain the experience you have accumulated, but many are still good divers and instructors.

 

[Thalassamania]

Over reaching to expect an instructor to be able to hit and hold a stop? Does it matter if you call it "safety," "deco," or just plain "stop?" That's hardly equivalent to pylon-racing or aerobatics, that's a basic skill that I expect that of entry level students. And as far as "qualified" to make a decompression stop, the idea that you need a whole separate class to conduct an air decompression dive is exactly part of the issue that I am raising. As to complex decompression problems, any instructor should be able to correctly work any problem that could be solved by the application of the U.S. Navy Standard Air Tables.

 

[BluewaterSail]

You know, another thing that hits me on this topic is that someone who signs up for guitar lessons knows what a well-played guitar sounds like, and can evaluate whether his instructor is at least moderately competent with the instrument. It's the same with swimming, riding, skiing . . . you can look at your instructor and see if he looks awkward or graceless, or if the horses are unhappy (although a lot of poor trainers fool their students).

But with diving, who has an image of what a "good diver" should look like or aspire to, when he signs up for a class? I really enjoy the fact that Peter shows the 5thD-X videos to his students as an example, not of what they will achieve by the end of the class, but what they should aspire to be able to do. But before they signed up for the class, they would have no way at all to know whether Peter's skills are good, bad or indifferent -- or whether what they are asked to do in their class is the maximum possible, or a lowest common denominator. I think when prospective students think of diving, they don't think of divers . . . they think of reef vistas, colorful fish, sharks, and rays. I know that I didn't have any mental picture of a good diver when I started, neither visually nor any idea of what good diving would FEEL like. If you have no idea what the end product should be, you have no way of knowing if the person you have hired can get you there.

I can't speak as a scuba instructor, I can only speak as a scuba student. I agree with Lynn.

However, after someone takes OW from whatever instructor that fate has provided, and they have done a few dives and are ready to progress to the next step, they do start to have an idea of what its all about.

I'm thinking that there might be a way to target this group of students, the more serious ones that will be continuing in their scuba studies. What do they want? What do they need? Where will they get information from?

This student will be open to reading notices posted at the shop, will listen to what people have to say, will start to think about who they want to be like.

I usually am not an example of "normal" or "mainstream", but here is my experience. I just changed scuba shops, so that I can be around more people with more experience. I am a recreational diver, but my new shop has a strong tech program. BP/W are not considered odd there, and I found that I am more likely to find a (recreational) buddy match there who I feel is a safe and competent diver. When I was ready for Rescue, this is where I went. I spent time talking to a number of shops and instructors before I made the choice for Rescue. I hadn't a clue when I took OW or AOW. By the time I got to Rescue, I could make an intelligent decision, and I did. Where I am, this also meant a change in shops, since most instructors are associated with shops. I was very pleased with the result, even though I lost a fantastic discount to a great hotel right at the beach where most of the diving takes place.

It doesn't seem like there is much that most instructors can do to differentiate themselves to the OW market, since the potential student is so clueless. But I do believe that for followon courses and planned activities, there is potential to differentiate. Maybe there is an opportunity to create follow-on activities for the certified student who in now hooked on diving.

 

[Thalassamania]

Congratulations BluewaterSail, you've figured it out and are on your way. Unfortunately, you are the minority. So many are brainwashed by the partyline of "Pros" who should know better, but don't.

 

[starrlamia]

re: the price, i dont think its overpriced whatsoever.
$300 for the course, if that is based on the course I took, our instruction/inpool/OW dives was about 28 hours worth of instructor time (probably a bit more just gestimating) and 4 people in the course, which amounts to $1200s. However if you break that down by hour, its about $43/hour. Which may seem like a lot to someone who isnt business savvy. But that money has to cover the instructor's payment and overhead for the shop. In the case of my shop, this includes cleaning the pool and upkeep after every class, time for fitting our gear (my gear was included in my package price mask, booties, flippers). Overhead for the shop, electricity/heat/water etc, all the paperwork that needs printing, the price for mortgage/rent on the store, upkeep on the store, salaries for their normal employees who work the store (as they are the ones who helped with fitting and selling their classes). And all the other random little things that go into running a shop and certifying divers. There is a hell of a lot more that goes into the price of classes then simply paying an instructor.

 

[Thalassamania]

No one is saying that there is not a lot that goes into supporting a class, what they are saying is that paying instructors on the same salary schedule as fast food workers is perhaps ... inappropriate.

 

[oly5050user]

re: the price, i dont think its overpriced whatsoever.
$300 for the course, if that is based on the course I took, our instruction/inpool/OW dives was about 28 hours worth of instructor time (probably a bit more just gestimating) and 4 people in the course, which amounts to $1200s. However if you break that down by hour, its about $43/hour. Which may seem like a lot to someone who isnt business savvy. But that money has to cover the instructor's payment and overhead for the shop. In the case of my shop, this includes cleaning the pool and upkeep after every class, time for fitting our gear (my gear was included in my package price mask, booties, flippers). Overhead for the shop, electricity/heat/water etc, all the paperwork that needs printing, the price for mortgage/rent on the store, upkeep on the store, salaries for their normal employees who work the store (as they are the ones who helped with fitting and selling their classes). And all the other random little things that go into running a shop and certifying divers. There is a hell of a lot more that goes into the price of classes then simply paying an instructor.

If gear was included as you say , I have NO idea how the facility made any money on the class of 4..figure the total income from the course is $1,200..now minus a decent rate of pay for the instructor for the 28 hours you say it took..28x$16.=$448..now income is $752. Now figure in rent,insurance,electric, staff salary's,advertising ,lets ball park it at $40. per student..so thats $160. more expense to the facility,income now down to $592.You say gear was included so figure that another $110.minimum per student at whole sale cost to facility.Thats another $440. less for facility..Now we are down to $152.for the facility..Now cost of maintaining gear and replacing some periodically,cost of pool if rented or even owned by facility and we have the class COSTING the facility ..Now you wonder why LDS owners get upset if students purchase gear from elsewhere during or after the class..
Real cost of a group class should easily be 2 to 3 times what is currently charged. Especially if If students continue purchasing gear from other than the facility they learned from..