Why aren't more people taking up scuba diving?

[Octopusprime]

Very nice commercial.

The manufs would have to ply the national markets..and they can't afford it. I saw something yesterday showing unit and dollar sales of a SINGLE SKU for a large shoe brand broken down by country. Their US sales in just ONE SKU was larger than the top 10 scuba brands US sales.

the difference is the SCUBA ads would run on tier 3 programming, Specialty channels, like travel, adventure, etc. Advertising in these areas is much less expensive... Not to mention they could do YouTube ads really cheep and you can do very specific demographics.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2015 at 12:58 PM ----------

Or you could stop talking and do something to drive traffic...

Go all in - DiVentures Scuba & Swim Center on Vimeo

Can an I ask why you used vimeo instead of YouTube? Toutube is becoming the most searched source for how to...

if Padi made an ad like this and put link to their site for instructor finder would make it much easier for so done to get started.

 

[mjrob]

hmmm, "tag it with the store names", not also the manuf? Plus, what vendors do you think the manufs will be able to get to invest in that? Their factories they use for piece work? Their printers?

In the 90's many manufs had co opt funds budgeted for dealers, in fact when I was a rep at Mares we did in the early 2000's. Never had a dealer request it, I did however mention it many times. It's a two way street. Heck, look in your various price lists and dealer agreements, the verbiage may still be there on some, it was quite common at one time.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. By vendors I mean scuba shops (what the manufacturers mistakenly see as their customer). And yes, obviously the ads--if created by a single manufacturer--would feature their gear. The LDS info would appear at the end of the spot. We have two stores and use the same ads in different markets, only the last "slide" changes.

And, in theory, some manufacturers do offer co-op funding, but it's really not easy to get it and the amounts are appallingly low. They would be well-served to revisit that. It really does amaze me, however, that no one takes them up on their offers...except most stores do very little, if any, advertising or marketing.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2015 at 02:53 PM ----------

the difference is the SCUBA ads would run on tier 3 programming, Specialty channels, like travel, adventure, etc. Advertising in these areas is much less expensive... Not to mention they could do YouTube ads really cheep and you can do very specific demographics.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2015 at 12:58 PM ----------




Can an I ask why you used vimeo instead of YouTube? Toutube is becoming the most searched source for how to...

if Padi made an ad like this and put link to their site for instructor finder would make it much easier for so done to get started.

The agency that produces ads (Clawhammer in Springfield, MO--I don't mind promoting them as they do very nice, pretty cost-effective work) for us posts them to Vimeo privately while they're in production and we're editing, changing, etc. They end up there when we're finished. You can find them on YouTube as well.

And you are correct, Tier 3 is an excellent way to go. You can pick from a large array of programming--think the Travel Channel, NatGeo, some of the Home and Food channels do very well for both our swim and scuba programs--and it's not as cost-prohibitive as even using the few local network channels. You can also negotiate additional spots if you sign reasonably committed contracts. For example, our ads ran (locally) during the college football playoff games last week. Some serious impressions there, you can be sure.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2015 at 02:57 PM ----------

Had a friend post on facebook today. She is an avid diver, BTW, but a friend took her golfing. She loved it. Now, she lives in the keys on her own boat and gets air fills for free from me, so she isn't likely to send any money diving anyway, but still. She tried golf. With a friend. She loved it.

I get it Wook. And, as is common, you're right. Referrals--which is what this is--are far and away the best way to make new divers. The best. Period. Take a friend diving...not golfing.

 

[cerich]

What do you think would be reasonable for a manuf to chip in? Because the majority (say upwards of 90%) of dealers spend less than 20K a year with a manuf. Then you have a handful of "supporters" that spend in the 45-80K a year (say 6 dealers) and in each territory you may have a couple whales that do quite good numbers. Those folks are usually (with some exceptions) Internet retailers. Honestly, when you look at the revenue and profit. Only the very top ones make sense math wise to co opt for advertising.

A 30K account the company pays the rep approx $2500-3000, so ~27k left. COG on that 30k is somewhere around 18 K. You are now left with ~9k profit, from which you are paying all the normal business expenses. If a brand sees $1500 in true net profit from a 30k account that brand is doing better than most brands.

I imagine to participate in a TV commercial will cost a min of say $2,500. I would not even consider doing that for a dealer that wasn't doing 80k plus a year with me....and that one year as an investment, if they didn't increase the buy to $120,000 the following year I would stop.

The other issue with the idea is markets. Frankly in our industry every dive shop wants an "exclusive" on a brand. They think mistakenly that will create a demand for them to offer the "in demand". ROFLMAO, other than to shops, instructors and the ultra enthusiast diver we actually don't have "brands" in diving. Those dear people will find it at the lowest cost, that is what they do. They are NOT good customers if you want to make a profit. In truth, they would be better off to all carry the same entry level and mid ranged brand and differentiate with higher end/specialized focus (tech, photo/video/spear, high end travel, etc) ...but I digress. Anyhow, because they want an exclusive(and get them because the dive brands are filled with the same savvy group thinkers as the shops), it is unlikely that a market will have multiple dealers that a manuf can/would group together their numbers to participate in a TV commercial. Because at best, in many, many cases there may be two 2 dealers in any broadcasting market that won't add up to enough dollars. Now if every shop in that market had one brand...something could happen. We're well over capacity on dive brands. But that will resolve shortly.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

The other issue with the idea is markets. Frankly in our industry every dive shop wants an "exclusive" on a brand. They think mistakenly that will create a demand for them to offer the "in demand". ROFLMAO, other than to shops, instructors and the ultra enthusiast diver we actually don't have "brands" in diving. Those dear people will find it at the lowest cost, that is what they do. They are NOT good customers if you want to make a profit. In truth, they would be better off to all carry the same entry level and mid ranged brand and differentiate with higher end/specialized focus (tech, photo/video/spear, high end travel, etc) ...but I digress. Anyhow, because they want an exclusive(and get them because the dive brands are filled with the same savvy group thinkers as the shops), it is unlikely that a market will have multiple dealers that a manuf can/would group together their numbers to participate in a TV commercial. Because at best, in many, many cases there may be two 2 dealers in any broadcasting market that won't add up to enough dollars. Now if every shop in that market had one brand...something could happen. We're well over capacity on dive brands. But that will resolve shortly.

I can't agree more.
New people who walk into a dive shop looking to get into it and pricing everything from gear to training don't know a damn thing about brand recognition or what is what. They wouldn't know SP, AL, Cressi, Mares, Oceanic, Tusa, Poseidon, Hollis, Apeks, DR, Aeris, Sherwood, or any other brand from a hole in the ground.
People look at overall price as value. Let's face it people are cheap. When they see the travelling scuba gear kiosk at Costco and see a whole reg set complete with console gauges, compass, octo, the whole schmere for half of what a SP reg sells for just the 1st and one 2nd they think something's wrong.
Maybe at one time when there were actual scuba magazines people would thumb through and see different ads by certain companies, but now that's gone. I went to a large news stand the other day to see what dive mags are still around and couldn't find one.
So advertising by brand to potential scuba candidates is pointless.

 

[AdivingBel]

Take a friend diving...not golfing.

When in the Keys, I have on occasion taken buds golfing in the morning and to the reef in the afternoon. I say you can have your cake and eat it too.

From an advertising stand point, I would think you would have a better chance of getting your point across relying on a regional consortium of dive shops/businesses than counting on gear manufacturers. The "Florida Keys" spots are nice. I'm sure there are some "good ole' boy" stories around the Keys and South FL shops about those, but they seem to be effective. Other businesses benefit regionally. You might have to get your hands dirty politically and deal with the Chamber of Commerce or other local factions, but they might have more of a vested interest in your success than a nameless big business. I bet Pete, Frank, and some of the shop owners might have some lively insights on those...

 

[mjrob]

What do you think would be reasonable for a manuf to chip in? Because the majority (say upwards of 90%) of dealers spend less than 20K a year with a manuf. Then you have a handful of "supporters" that spend in the 45-80K a year (say 6 dealers) and in each territory you may have a couple whales that do quite good numbers. Those folks are usually (with some exceptions) Internet retailers. Honestly, when you look at the revenue and profit. Only the very top ones make sense math wise to co opt for advertising.

A 30K account the company pays the rep approx $2500-3000, so ~27k left. COG on that 30k is somewhere around 18 K. You are now left with ~9k profit, from which you are paying all the normal business expenses. If a brand sees $1500 in true net profit from a 30k account that brand is doing better than most brands.

I imagine to participate in a TV commercial will cost a min of say $2,500. I would not even consider doing that for a dealer that wasn't doing 80k plus a year with me....and that one year as an investment, if they didn't increase the buy to $120,000 the following year I would stop.

The other issue with the idea is markets. Frankly in our industry every dive shop wants an "exclusive" on a brand. They think mistakenly that will create a demand for them to offer the "in demand". ROFLMAO, other than to shops, instructors and the ultra enthusiast diver we actually don't have "brands" in diving. Those dear people will find it at the lowest cost, that is what they do. They are NOT good customers if you want to make a profit. In truth, they would be better off to all carry the same entry level and mid ranged brand and differentiate with higher end/specialized focus (tech, photo/video/spear, high end travel, etc) ...but I digress. Anyhow, because they want an exclusive(and get them because the dive brands are filled with the same savvy group thinkers as the shops), it is unlikely that a market will have multiple dealers that a manuf can/would group together their numbers to participate in a TV commercial. Because at best, in many, many cases there may be two 2 dealers in any broadcasting market that won't add up to enough dollars. Now if every shop in that market had one brand...something could happen. We're well over capacity on dive brands. But that will resolve shortly.

Well the goal, see, is to expand the market--exponentially if possible (and it's possible). It's kind of like that ol' spend money to make it thing.

Or maybe I'll just give up. But I won't, we'll just keep improving as we learn and grow our markets as best we can. We started with nothing and now we have, um, something. I'd much rather apply my energy to growth than battle the same old pointless battle over and over and over and over...........

All I'm saying is it can be done. I can show you.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2015 at 07:32 PM ----------

Oh, I forgot. We've been offered less than 1% in coop dollars of what our annual ad budget is by "a major manufacturer." Ten times that would be nice and would let us see some ROI, I imagine.

But what do I know? Oh, have you seen our stores?

 

[cerich]

Well the goal, see, is to expand the market--exponentially if possible (and it's possible). It's kind of like that ol' spend money to make it thing.

Or maybe I'll just give up. But I won't, we'll just keep improving as we learn and grow our markets as best we can. We started with nothing and now we have, um, something. I'd much rather apply my energy to growth than battle the same old pointless battle over and over and over and over...........

All I'm saying is it can be done. I can show you.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2015 at 07:32 PM ----------

Oh, I forgot. We've been offered less than 1% in coop dollars of what our annual ad budget is by "a major manufacturer." Ten times that would be nice and would let us see some ROI, I imagine.

But what do I know? Oh, have you seen our stores?

Of course you need to spend money to make money. But math is math, it isn't biased. There has to be a reasonable expectation of a ROI, most dive shops can't provide that to a dive brand. They simply don't have the penetration or even the ability to service it if handed to them.

That said, from appearances, your shops do. That's great. The "story" on the street is that you guys made boucoup bucks in another field, love diving and opened the shops. That's great, frankly the "industry" has seen it time and time again and most of the time it has failed. But they won't tell you that, they will kiss your behind because being your cheerleader is part of getting the sales. But honestly...you guys get lip time and the "buzz" is things are not quite what was expected. I REALLY hope that isn't the case because from here I am seeing vision, passion, savvy and capitalized. Just understand, the dive industry is not there for you....but sounds like you are figuring that out.

There is ONE brand with annual US sales above 30 million (and lots of that is mil and commercial), one over 20 and a very few in the teens, all low teens. Then there are a handful that were close to 10, now dragging along at under 5. Most brands have seen contraction of revenue of 20-40% since 2007, some higher. They can't afford a higher comp.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2015 at 08:52 PM ----------

OH, and I believe 1000% that a shop can suceed, thrive and grow in the dive industry today. In fact I think for many it's a generational oppurtunity timing wise. Just, please, please, please...don't follow the standard industry thinking...it's a tall glass of slow acting poison.

Of course you need to spend money to make money. But math is math, it isn't biased. There has to be a reasonable expectation of a ROI, most dive shops can't provide that to a dive brand. They simply don't have the penetration or even the ability to service it if handed to them.

That said, from appearances, your shops do. That's great. The "story" on the street is that you guys made boucoup bucks in another field, love diving and opened the shops. That's great, frankly the "industry" has seen it time and time again and most of the time it has failed. But they won't tell you that, they will kiss your behind because being your cheerleader is part of getting the sales. But honestly...you guys get lip time and the "buzz" is things are going poorly. I REALLY hope that isn't the case because from here I am seeing vision, passion, savvy and capitalized. Just understand, the dive industry is not there for you....but sounds like you are figuring that out.

There is ONE brand with annual US sales above 30 million (and lots of that is mil and commercial), one over 20 and a very few in the teens, all low teens. Then there are a handful that were close to 10, now dragging along at under 5. Most brands have seen contraction of revenue of 20-40% since 2007, some higher. They can't afford a higher comp.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

OH, and I believe 1000% that a shop can suceed, thrive and grow in the dive industry today. In fact I think for many it's a generational oppurtunity timing wise. Just, please, please, please...don't follow the standard industry thinking...it's a tall glass of slow acting poison.

Oh boy! That's a slippery slope and a glass of nectar wrapped into one, is it poisoned or is it not?
If I had a hunk of money would I invest in a dive shop or not? NO WAY!
But that's just me, I'm not much of a gambler. I don't like surprises even though I'm faced with them every day.
I've been self employed now longer than I've worked for somebody (over 25 years) in the yacht repair and restore business (yeah, I know, crazy huh?).
But a dive shop, no way not me, that's where I draw the line. High rent, high insurance, PG&E, wages, workman's comp, and all the rest of the overhead with no certain future and no help from anybody in the industry, and a dropping participation rate. Nobody with any business sense would ever invest in such an ill fated enterprise.
Unless somebody loves the thought of having a dive shop so much that they are willing to almost commit financial suicide and are willing to go down with the ship. They are out there, god bless them.

 

[Octopusprime]

When in the Keys, I have on occasion taken buds golfing in the morning and to the reef in the afternoon. I say you can have your cake and eat it too.

From an advertising stand point, I would think you would have a better chance of getting your point across relying on a regional consortium of dive shops/businesses than counting on gear manufacturers. The "Florida Keys" spots are nice. I'm sure there are some "good ole' boy" stories around the Keys and South FL shops about those, but they seem to be effective. Other businesses benefit regionally. You might have to get your hands dirty politically and deal with the Chamber of Commerce or other local factions, but they might have more of a vested interest in your success than a nameless big business. I bet Pete, Frank, and some of the shop owners might have some lively insights on those...

thete are a bunch of shops from the keys that have banded together with visitors bearu they came as a group to our world underwater show in Chicago last feb.

---------- Post added January 7th, 2015 at 12:09 AM ----------

Of course you need to spend money to make money. But math is math, it isn't biased. There has to be a reasonable expectation of a ROI, most dive shops can't provide that to a dive brand. They simply don't have the penetration or even the ability to service it if handed to them.

That said, from appearances, your shops do. That's great. The "story" on the street is that you guys made boucoup bucks in another field, love diving and opened the shops. That's great, frankly the "industry" has seen it time and time again and most of the time it has failed. But they won't tell you that, they will kiss your behind because being your cheerleader is part of getting the sales. But honestly...you guys get lip time and the "buzz" is things are not quite what was expected. I REALLY hope that isn't the case because from here I am seeing vision, passion, savvy and capitalized. Just understand, the dive industry is not there for you....but sounds like you are figuring that out.

There is ONE brand with annual US sales above 30 million (and lots of that is mil and commercial), one over 20 and a very few in the teens, all low teens. Then there are a handful that were close to 10, now dragging along at under 5. Most brands have seen contraction of revenue of 20-40% since 2007, some higher. They can't afford a higher comp.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2015 at 08:52 PM ----------

OH, and I believe 1000% that a shop can suceed, thrive and grow in the dive industry today. In fact I think for many it's a generational oppurtunity timing wise. Just, please, please, please...don't follow the standard industry thinking...it's a tall glass of slow acting poison.

The problem with most small businesses is they think small. Very few small businesses invest in marketing, branding or image. Look at most dive shops... If they were a bar you would call them a hole in the wall or "dive bar" ( couldn't help the pun) people like to shop in bright stores with lots of activity. When you walk into most dive shops there is someone sitting down surprised you walked in the door.

Someone posted diventures made their money in another bisness... I say who cares... The point is they know how to run a successfull business and I'm glad to see someone with business knowledge in the scuba bis... I would like to see more professionals getting into diving instead of divers that want to make a living with scuba...

 

[mjrob]

It's always interesting to hear what "the buzz" is.

We're a business. We're in business. I did retire but found it to be boring. I had forgotten how much work it is to start and run a business, but that's what I've always done. I suppose that, if you weren't successful, it wouldn't be so much work. Work is good.

Yep, we picked a business we love...and one that promises and has provided much opportunity for growth. Someone mentioned that, perhaps, our vendors treat us in a special manner. Maybe some do but, again, this is a business. If they can't provide us what we need, when we need it, all the posturing in the world doesn't make a teeny-weeny bit of difference. You can ask multiple vendors about me; I'm not a particularly easy guy to deal with. That's OK. I'm not in this for the free lunch--I've never been in business for that because, as we all know, lunch ain't really free.

And, continuing to beat that poor horse (which is tiring and unproductive), the old shop model is no longer effective. You really need to expand your horizons to succeed and, to do that, you have to think logically about things like your potential market, how to market to them, capital investment, human investment and a host of other "business things." It helps to have a niche; something to differentiate you and, IMO, provide more than just scuba.

Some shops also sell paintball stuff, some sell snow skis. I've seen shops with archery equipment, stand-up paddleboards and even edged weapons. Some successful shops just do scuba. Everyone's market is different. We tried Internet sales but, for us right now, it took more resources than we chose to invest, so we stopped. We may go back some day, when we free up or add those resources. For us, the complimentary business is swim instruction. Plenty of competition there, too...but we sure do teach a lot of people how to swim. Call me crazy, but those swimmers and their families sure look like potential future scuba divers. I'd add another pool just to meet demand and free up more water for scuba classes, but we can't hire and train enough quality swim instructors. It's that pesky resource issue again. Anybody want a job?

i can't even remember how this thread started, but it's very early in the morning, I'm awake and thinking about business and, by golly, I've got things to do today. That's as it should be. Cool thing is, I get to go do those things with fun people in a great scuba shop. It just don't get no better than that.

---------- Post added January 7th, 2015 at 05:16 AM ----------

Oops, I forgot. I do that

Someone mentioned they'd heard things weren't what we'd expected. They're right...but then things in business seldom are. Some things are better, some more challenging. You roll with it and adjust when needed, kind of like life in general. I think I'd get bored if everything just followed the plan.