DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?
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mariosx
Contributor
You have orders of magnitude more experience than myself on meeting/discussing/interacting with other divers, so I cannot challenge your perspective.
To my very limited epxerience the past 2 years of diving, and the last year as a diver that got some taste of the kool-aid, I have not seen a GUE diver at any level not being humble. Especially when I am diving with other GUE-F buddies, together or as part of a mixed group, we focus more on how many mistakes we did, and how many things we need to work on, than what other divers did. 100% of the "bullying" and boasting I have seen is from non-GUE divers, especially in the presence of other divers with H's on their harness. Albeit, most of my buddies and I might live in the "academic bubble" and meeting the GUE divers you describe might be unlikely, but the last days in the forum in several threads we had maybe like 1 post that had some underlying "elitistic" attitude supporting GUE, while we had many more bashing indiscriminately GUE divers, or even rationalizing and supporting such toxic behavior. But I digress.
I certainly don't belong in the class of people that believe they "mastered scuba" from a 4-day class, but I certainly see myself in the category of people that according to you should shut the f**k up (newly certified and express my perspective), thus it might make sense to answer to the second person of your last sense as it was partially intended for me. If not, cool, feel free to skip the next paragraph:
I never even came close to believe that I am special or anything when it comes to scuba after my GUE class, and I can comfirm the same for the 100% of GUE-F divers I have met. Maybe a small sample, still factual truth. I am best-case a mediocre diver that thanks to GUE and few dives of incredible instruction I am able somehow perform the basics to an OK degree. I truly believe that after GUE-F I have better position in the water (hover) than 90-95% of the non-GUE recreational divers I have seen, and a good majority of dive professionals unfortunately. In fact I truly believe that if every diver was going through the same or similar process, trained to reach similar standards, I will be mediocre or below, even at recreational level. So this says nothing about myself, it says a lot about others. When I emphasize this estimation from my side, I don't boast, I rather feel extremely sad for the state of the dive market, that a mediocre newbie that didn't know how to not silt a rocky bottom, after 3 dives of good instruction can hover better than professionals that TEACH and CERTIFY other divers, and that a good chunk of them cannot stop bushing GUE (the reason I developed such skill). It's not that I am special or became a God... It's the fact that many dive instructors ask for our money to teach skills they have not developed after years of being professionals, while any newbie needs only 3-4 dives to master them in a greater level. This is extremely unprofessional, and as a costumer that is constantly advertised and pushed to trust such professionals in several LDS, I would say I have some right to not liking the situation.
Is GUE the only organization developing such basic skills? DEFINETELY NOT. I have seen superb instructors, DMs, and divers from other organizations ("DIR"-like or not) that had solid skills themselves to a degree that I will never realistically reach.
Is every GUE diver passing through the GUE-F process special? OF COURSE NOT, and I am a prime example of that. GUE-F divers are, in my opinion, what the bare minimum should be for a diver that will not get themselves most probably into big trouble, while also be able to respect the environment and their buddies, and enjoy scuba. I am not referring to the philosophy which is a subjective matter (solo vs team oriented, etc) but the skills that could be measured objectively.
Does a professional that cannot meet the standards of GUE-F when it comes to skills (buoyancy, trim, etc), teach literally any person to scuba? My answer is an emphatic NO. It's unacceptable to not be able themselves master skills in their multi-year thousands-dives experience that a newbie can do in 3-4 dives. I was being "taught" and "evaluated" during my PPB segment of my AOW class while hovering in place, by an "experienced" instructor that couldn't control his buoyancy and had to grab objects to remain neutral. That professional got my money.
It's amazing to me how the community is willing to give a pass on the last point to many. I have taught in the university in the past, and I will most probably do in the future. Can you imagine if a single of my students is taking my class (a subject that I have been studying and working on since before they entered college and highschool), and ending up knowing the material of my class they are been graded upon better than myself, just because they watched a 40 minutes video on youtube? Should I expect them to show me any respect? Would I feel comfortable judging their capabilities? Could by any means justify my payment that comes from their high tuition? Would you feel safe as a patient if I was training medical doctors?
I hope we all agree NO, but somehow, this is acceptable in the current state of the scuba community, where you get labeled as elitist/narcisist by some if you mention it, and you are forced to accept all the outcomes of poor instruction, in yourself and your surroundings.
I never judged other divers. I judge other professionals, something also known as consumer consciousness.
Might fit well for many, and I would agree for the obnoxious type of GUE-F diver that I have not encounter yet. But in this context, the way I see it, using this analogy, the newly sexualy active person was paying in the past for the advice of other virgins that have best case hit the first base, yet presenting themselves as womanizers. Then he discovers after his first intercourse that actually they don't know even the basics they claim to. This guy simply would switch to people that have some actual experience that can improve his enjoyment during sex. He doesn't feel special for having sex, a bare minimum standard for most humans, but sad that the aforementioned virgins continue affecting with questionable advices (due to their objective incompetence) how other people see sex, like he did also in the past.
P/S: Your response said nothing about the entire argument of my last response, thus I assume there was no disagreement.
I was having lunch with a long time instructor in Cave Country and the topic of the GUE came up and how my old instructor hated the GUE because he lived through the GI3 "You strokes are going to die!" era. But those of us that came in after the blowhards like GI3 retired have a completely different view of the GUE and generally are quite on good terms with the GUE community... except the Fundies grads who are the worst ambassadors for the GUE.
beester
Contributor
Heya Mario,
First of all let me eat some humble pie ;-) With my comment on fresh fundies graduates I wasn't implying anything about you. To be honest I didn't even know that you took fundies recently. So my comments were totally not directed at you. So mea culpa!
2nd you (and anybody) can always challenge my perspective! That's how I learn! Getting another point of view. Everybody posting here on this board, and every diver I meet has in my opinion interesting stuff to share. So what I've learned from your post is that in your local community it doesn't seem to be a real problem, and my insight should have been more nuanced.
You are also totally right on a couple of things:
- That there is a lack of quality control and a lack of basic skills in the general diving industry. And yes there are still too many divers with teaching capacity that are lacking in basic skills. However I do believe that the industry in general is making progress. And I also believe that GUE for being such a small organisation (compared to the other big organisations) is pulling above it's weight when it comes to influencing the industry in general. Just talking about IANTD, the fact that an IANTD essentials course exists or that they know acknowledge standard gasses has I'm sure to do with GUE/UTD/whatnot influence.
- Also true that (in this post or others on this forum) from time to time people will bash GUE. And I think I already commented on this in this specific post. That's totally ok, but people should do it on the behaviour of current GUE divers/instructors/procedures and not because GI3 poluted diving forums 25 odd years ago.
However with all due respect, I do stand by my comments in my previous post, that I've seen from time to time fundies students who are totally off the mark and behaving very zealous. I was at a time organizing most of the wreck diving for my local gue community on the north sea, and I had on 1 of these rec depth dives have a recently passed fundies diver commenting on how I routed my hoses on a stage I had with me. That's in the end just a just a nice cause for shits and giggles and it's still chasing the poor guy from time to time. BUT if he would have been on a normal wreck trip and he would have been commenting this to a non GUE divers he would have perpetuated again this nonsense that we are elitist and don't know what we are talking about. Just one example this one.
The point is that during fundies there is so much to teach. Not just the basic skills but also the GUE "language" and standards... that it's a bit of a strict no discussion course, there simply is not enough time. And divers take this with them when they graduate from fundies and apply it. But when you progress in more technical diving gain experience and take other (GUE) courses, you notice that there in fact is much more freedom in questioning practices or adjusting things according to your needs as a team for the divers planned. So gue divers tend to become much more mellow ;-) We're all in the water just to have fun!
We know that is the same thing, right? The term “DIR” was entered into the dive history books via the “Doing it Right, The Fundamentals of Better Diving” book by Jarrod Jablonski.
mariosx
Contributor
Hey,
To be honest, I was almost certain it was not directed to me, I just wanted to play it safe, and took the opportunity to clarify to few others, that often may misjudge my perspective.
Hey, you are more years in the community, I trust you on that. I can sample only from the past 2 years. It's not that I believe that the average diver with even bellow average instruction will die or endanger themselves. Just that they are not getting what they paid for.
People might correct me, but my perception is that GUE is not focusing on changing industry standards (anymore at least). They might did back in the day in a wrong way for many, but nowadays I only see it as an organization that cares about their divers with little to no interest on others, given the constant flow of more than enough students per year for their capacity.
Even when some very charismatic GUE instructors start a "general purpose" channel in youtube, they may have like a 5% of videos that might hook new divers on the in and outs of the organization. 95% of them is focused for people already GUE trained, or divers that have already scheduled and decided taking a GUE-F class. I refuse to accept that this is just due to poor marketing skills/approach. It seems intentional to me.
IANTD has been one of the organizations that have produce solid divers, who I had the pleasure to dive with, enjoy and learn, with only 1 exception.
Btw, I am totally OK if somebody wants to bash GUE as an organization, their HQ, or whatever. Arguments could be formed based on facts to support a rational and constructive discussion. Bashing GUE divers online that you have never met, it's the problem. Replace GUE with any other agency and I would say the same.
Commenting on other's gear/config, without being their instructor, boat operator, or they obviously violate general standards is the equivalent of a random dude in the street stopping random people making negative comments about their clothes. Something is off in their lives.
If I saw some weird routing that didn't make a lot of sense, I might ask a question to have you explain me why, etc. If it makes sense (whether I agree or not) cool, if not it's not my job to train you (even if it's obviously wrong). There is only this single moment during a fun dive with my buddies on the boat, that I was debating with myself for some good 5 minutes on making a comment to help another diver during their AOW training next to their instructor. The diver had a spool and secured it the wrong way using the other end of the double ender, which could very easily get untied and cause entanglement. His instructor didn't pay attention to that checking other stuff and I was debating how to comment on that in a respectful way. I ended up notifying the instructor in the most polite way I knew that the spool might not be secured enough. Thankfuly, he just thanked me, and (I AM NOT MAKING IT UP) ziptied the double ender to the spool, instead of just switching to secure it by clipping it on the other end. I made no further comment ofc.
Just due to my backgroound (quite obvious due to my gear) I truly felt that I was walking on eggshells. Honestly, I am not sure if there was a better way to handle such situation, or I should better just mind my own business. I still debate it with myself evey now and then, so if you have any ideas/input I would love to hear it.
I guess I beg to differ also on that front, but I can easily understand why for many/most taking the class this might be the dominant perspective. I was never asked if I have any question, but no question was dismissed or responded with annoyance.
During theory, practically, I was bombarding the instructor with questions. I am very analytical as a person and "dogma" is not something that my brain and muscle memory can accept easily. I was literally messing up my V-drills, until he found an answer to the reasoning behind tiny detail in the process (by calling an IE), and instantly fixed my issue. The instructor was always giving answers to the point, actually enjoying the process, without violating time scedule. I am not sure if there have been changes in the instruction process/philosophy from when you took it, or it was because my instructor was very new and patient.
I would agree, for sure, that there is no time for questions that you are expected to know, answered by just reading the material.
No, we don't know that, which is why I asked. GUE is all DIR, but not all DIR is GUE.
@tursiops I’m sorry, what? Can you tell us more about how not all DIR is GUE? I’m a little confused. I assume DIR and GUE are the same, considering the founder of GUE also founded the term “Doing it Right.” Sure, I guess some agencies like UTD and ISE have copied it (sort of), but I’m a little confused with your reply.
The term "Doing it Right" was created well before Jarrod wrote that book. George Irvine III used the phrase in an interview about WKPP diving practices. That was before GUE existed. The phrase stuck with WKPP, which included Jarrod. Jarrod used it later when he created GUE, and he used it when he created Halcyon.
A training director for both WKPP (I think) and GUE was Andrew Georgitsis. After GUE fired him, he worked for NAUI Tech for a while, bringing the ideas and term there, although NAUI did not formally adopt the term. Then he founded UTD, which still uses the term DIR. (GUE, BTW, does not.) Current UTD practices do not align with GUE's or with earlier version of DIR, but they still call it DIR. There are some significant differences.
Another agency, Innerspace Explorers (ISE) also uses the term DIR. I do not know how well their version of DIR matches GUE practices.
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