DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[James79]

A real spectacle are a bunch of divers claiming they don't need GUE training or any training for that manner and just treat dive classes as "pay money get a card" and let experience and Darwin do the rest - sadly some of these divers survive long enough to spread this nonsense. Some of them end up as pretty good divers - as long as nothing goes wrong under water

This is some of that broad brush approach that drives some away from GUE. You tell us that if we aren't GUE, we can't be any good... Especially if anything goes wrong.
No matter how good GUE may be, that doesn't render everyone else incapable of being good. This attitude of inherent superiority frankly makes many not want to have anything to do with them.
Some of the GUE posters in this thread have posted things that make me want training or mentorship with them... And others leave me with the feeling that no amount of improvement I could gain would be worth dealing with the superior attitude.
Just my view, from the outside looking in (which I think is what the OP actually was after!).

Respectfully,

James

 

[boulderjohn]

Reread to what I was responding to please.

I did. In fact, I quoted it and put it bold to make that clear.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I did. In fact, I quoted it and put it bold to make that clear.

Okay, John, you were a teacher, so I shouldn't have to break down sentences for you.

A real spectacle are a bunch of divers claiming they don't need GUE training or any training for that manner and just treat dive classes as "pay money get a card" and let experience and Darwin do the rest - sadly some of these divers survive long enough to spread this nonsense. Some of them end up as pretty good divers - as long as nothing goes wrong under water

Matan said here that divers claim they don't need training, but they do take training and treat it as "pay money get a card." (bolded above). I extrapolated this to diving as a pro. The standards for becoming a dive instructor isn't all that high. Sure there are performance standards, but it is scary if a person cannot meet those, just like those recreational courses, you do something during your course, but the standards are so low, you are guaranteed a card. Now there are exceptions with some students, but in contrast to GUE fundies, I don't believe that anyone was awarded a rec or tec pass that didn't earn it.

I hope this clarifies and closes this matter.

 

[boulderjohn]

Okay, John, you were a teacher, so I shouldn't have to break down sentences for you.



Matan said here that divers claim they don't need training, but they do take training and treat it as "pay money get a card." (bolded above). I extrapolated this to diving as a pro. The standards for becoming a dive instructor isn't all that high. Sure there are performance standards, but it is scary if a person cannot meet those, just like those recreational courses, you do something during your course, but the standards are so low, you are guaranteed a card. Now there are exceptions with some students, but in contrast to GUE fundies, I don't believe that anyone was awarded a rec or tec pass that didn't earn it.

I hope this clarifies and closes this matter.

I was an English teacher, so I responded to what was written in English. I was not trained as a mind reader, so I did not know how you were reacting to what was read. I made the mistake of assuming you were reacting to what was written, which was that some people think no training is necessary, that all one needs is experience. So when you said that people who say you don't need any training go on to be instructors, I wondered how that happens.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I was an English teacher, so I responded to what was written in English. I was not trained as a mind reader, so I did not know how you you were reacting to what was read. I made the mistake of assuming you were reacting to what was written, which was that some people think no training is necessary, that all one needs is experience. So when you said that people who say you do;t need any training go on to be instructors, I wondered how that happens.

Sigh. Again, they may think they don't need training, but they still do get it. They just feel that they are guaranteed the (pro) card at the end.

Is that clear now?

 

[Lorenzoid]

This is some of that broad brush approach that drives some away from GUE.

I too felt a whiff of superiority in the tone of @Matan 's comment, but I don't think he meant it that way.

No matter how good GUE may be, that doesn't render everyone else incapable of being good.

But he didn't say that. He said there "are a bunch of divers claiming they don't need GUE training or any training for that matter." His point could have been made without even referring to GUE. Divers cheaping out on training and/or just looking for a card is not a matter of GUE vs. other agency. There are great instructors, some participating on SB, whose courses some divers might avoid because those instructors don't award cards willy nilly; they give tough courses, tell students the truth in their feedback, and award cards only to students who earned them.

 

[James79]

I too felt a whiff of superiority in the tone of @Matan 's comment, but I don't think he meant it that way.

But he didn't say that. He said there "are a bunch of divers claiming they don't need GUE training or any training for that matter." His point could have been made without even referring to GUE. Divers cheaping out on training and/or just looking for a card is not a matter of GUE vs. other agency. There are great instructors, some participating on SB, whose courses some divers might avoid because those instructors don't award cards willy nilly; they give tough courses, tell students the truth in their feedback, and award cards only to students who earned them.

Fair enough... Tone is hard to tell in text format.
I do believe training (and certification) should be standards based.... I'm just also not sure everything needs a certification. And that some things can be self taught (though I recognize it's not the fastest, surest, or best method for most things). Like the various finning methods.... some can self teach through videos and use of a camera to video themselves. Not all can, and the feedback loop is longer, but some can. But I digress.
As an outsider, I am intrigued by much of what GUE teaches... enough to indirectly study some of it, incorporate some of it, but not enough to seek out a Fundies course. Some of that is bang for the buck issues for the type of diving I do. Some of that is because of a perceived air of superiority from GUE divers... not all, but enough to make it a part of my personal calculous on how to spend my limited fun money.

Respectfully,

James

 

[mariosx]

Some of that is because of a perceived air of superiority from GUE divers... not all, but enough to make it a part of my personal calculous on how to spend my limited fun money.

Without disagreeing with your own perception and feelings, indeed when you learn few tricks through this class that improve your experience and competence underwater objectively (to an extend that even very new divers with limited experience could outperform potentially the majority of the instructors) few people might justify braging and rationalize their inherit narcissism.
I would argue that, at least to me, this is a reason to take the class, not to avoid it. Such possibly blunt boasting wouldn't survive a single dive without also some partial objective reality to support it. If they saw actually people at their level (or even much higher) performing the same skills better (i.e. hovering, drills, etc.), then they would be forced to be less vocal and find another hobby that could satisfy their narcissism. Neither GUE could "facilitate" such people if they haven't prove themselves to the community, if there were occasional negative class reports (a wet dream for many), fatalities/accidents of GUE divers following GUE protocols, etc. So "elitism" indeed in many cases is a good indication that statistically some skills are developed well.

Once again, I am not pushing you to get the class or endorsing abnoxious behavior by GUE trained divers. But this specific argument, although emotionally it makes sense (nobody wants to associate themselves with annoying no-lifers --- far from the truth to my experience), doesn't seem to support your argument if your goal is to refine your skills as a diver.

P/S: The cost is a major turn off for most, and indeed I don't think I would get into a GUE-F class anytime soon without having my work sponsoring my GUE-F class. Not because I couldn't find the money in couple of months, but because it is hard to realize before the class the immense value I obtained. I spent the next 5-6 months just balancing my expenses to cover only the other costs (accommodation / car / personal gear/ etc.). But after the class, comparing it with the cost of training with other agencies, I would say it's possibly 50% from what they should/could charge.

 

[beester]

In reality it seems that most people are turned off by paying money to someone who tells them the truth - it's easier ( not cheaper ) to just buy a rebreather.

All GUE trained divers I have met always claimed the best training they have took was their GUE classes.
all non-GUE divers I have met always claimed GUE training it too expensive/don't want to pay and not get a card.

A real spectacle are a bunch of divers claiming they don't need GUE training or any training for that manner and just treat dive classes as "pay money get a card" and let experience and Darwin do the rest - sadly some of these divers survive long enough to spread this nonsense. Some of them end up as pretty good divers - as long as nothing goes wrong under water


Matan.

Heya Matan, I think you don't mean it like this.. but you are sounding mighty elitist in this post. Time to climb down from the high chair ;-) Your post makes sense if you keep GUE totally out of it. Because training or no training is not an exclusive GUE thing.

Rant on on the elitist vibe that I'm feeling:

Some of the training GUE provides is bar non the best I've ever had (yes this is subjective), nothing can touch it and I've had training from a lot of organisations and am an instructor for 2 (and these are not GUE).

However it's a big world out there, and I know some amazing non GUE instructors who give fantastic courses! But the highs and lows are definately more defined in other organisations than with GUE who keep a tight grasp on quality control!

That being said, there are also quite some ******** GUE courses as well that are being peddled ;-) Drysuit specialty, doubles specialty, photogrammetry, documentation diver... I wouldn't pay big bugs to do any of them because you can get experience in them with some good mentors, instead of taking a course. And then you have stuff like rec3... which is just plain silly, but I'll shut up ;-)

I'm reacting because I just get the willies when it sounds like someone is saying "blablablablablabla we are the best, blablablablabla"... I have heard it TOO much in the early 2000s with the DIR ****ers (these typically were not the guys doing big dives but the people surrounding them with barely a fundies under their belt). And yes there are also bad GUE divers... not many, but I've seen some real ****ers and **** ups (some by me, just search my name and you'll find plenty).

I'm sorry I drank the koolaid a long time ago and I'm 100% a GUE diver benefiting from all the training, the standards and procedures and the community every diving day, but my brain tends to shut down when I hear someone stating how good "we" (as in GUE) are

Rant over!

 

[beester]

Without disagreeing with your own perception and feelings, indeed when you learn few tricks through this class that improve your experience and competence underwater objectively (to an extend that even very new divers with limited experience could outperform potentially the majority of the instructors) few people might justify braging and rationalize their inherit narcissism.
I would argue that, at least to me, this is a reason to take the class, not to avoid it. Such possibly blunt boasting wouldn't survive a single dive without also some partial objective reality to support it. If they saw actually people at their level (or even much higher) performing the same skills better (i.e. hovering, drills, etc.), then they would be forced to be less vocal and find another hobby that could satisfy their narcissism. Neither GUE could "facilitate" such people if they haven't prove themselves to the community, if there were occasional negative class reports (a wet dream for many), fatalities/accidents of GUE divers following GUE protocols, etc. So "elitism" indeed in many cases is a good indication that statistically some skills are developed well.

Once again, I am not pushing you to get the class or endorsing abnoxious behavior by GUE trained divers. But this specific argument, although emotionally it makes sense (nobody wants to associate themselves with annoying no-lifers --- far from the truth to my experience), doesn't seem to support your argument if your goal is to refine your skills as a diver.

P/S: The cost is a major turn off for most, and indeed I don't think I would get into a GUE-F class anytime soon without having my work sponsoring my GUE-F class. Not because I couldn't find the money in couple of months, but because it is hard to realize before the class the immense value I obtained. I spent the next 5-6 months just balancing my expenses to cover only the other costs (accommodation / car / personal gear/ etc.). But after the class, comparing it with the cost of training with other agencies, I would say it's possibly 50% from what they should/could charge.

I'm sorry but really a good rule for the GUE community would be to force people who've taken a fundies recently to shut the f**k up, both when speaking about diving in the community or online.

I've seen it a lot. They manage a rec or (god forbit) a tech pass and now suddenly they are gods diving creation put on this blue planet to tell everybody how to improve. Yes it is a hard course, yes you learn a lot that you'll use the rest of your diving carreer, yes it really is an achievement to get a pass, but you are not special...

I'm going to quote Bob (grateful diver) again because he said it best "
You see that in all endeavors ... it's human nature, on the day after losing his virginity, for a guy to strut around acting like he invented sex.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)"