DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[James79]

I can see where an instructor might take issue with issuing a GUE certification to a student who makes a blatant show of intent to violate GUE philosophy, given that this certification might be taken by other GUE divers that he's a trained, competent and ready diver ready to integrate into GUE dive teams at this level of training. It doesn't seem fair to write that off as 'refusing to drink the Kool-Aid.'

It took me a a while to put my finger on why this bothers me, but I think I can articulate it now. It is a false dichotomy.... it doesn't need to be either or. To be clear, I have no GUE training (and am actually a target audience for the original question, lol). But say I wanted to go the GUE route, learn their methods, philosophy, and equipment. I can also intend to dive on vacations with my wife with us both in poodle jackets and "traditional" short hose reg sets (even, god forbid, an AIR2!) and solo dive at times. Those practices (and intentions) do not automatically render me incapable of diving with different gear and methods (GUE team diving) when diving under different conditions (with a GUE team). Failing to maintain the training that the certification represents would render me not ready "to integrate into GUE dive teams at this level of training." Riding a motorcycle doesn't render me incapable of backing up a trailer... not backing up a trailer often enough to maintain the skillset does, regardless of what is done in between.
The false dichotomy is what I see (admittedly from the outside) as the "Kool-Aid." So, for me, I will continue to observe threads where GUE methods and reasoning are discussed, read their articles, watch videos, and otherwise glean what I can.... without spending my very limited funds.

Respectfully,

James

 

[James79]

nobody gives a **** if you solo dive or don't want to take gue courses. do what you want, who cares?

To be fair, the very existence of this thread is a counterpoint to that sentiment, lol!

Respectfully,

James

 

[flymolo]

Or ask questions about a certain rebreather and get abuse hurled at them.

Standardisation is one thing, but common sense is another. Diving styles need to be adapted for the specific circumstances of a dive. Could give many examples: sticking all tins left when they float up in a wreck, even on a leash; having a longhose under a CCR loop; abhorring sidemount principles for streamlining; using computers (although that's dropped in recent years); lights on helmets; "that" rebreather configuration...

There was a pretty long thread about the gue rebreather configuration where a few people spent time trying to explain the rationale behind it, and even sent articles to you. I don’t recall there being any abuse hurled.

 

[Doc Harry]

who cares?

It's clear from your tirade that YOU care a lot!
LOL

 

[rddvet]

Whats your gas rule/turn pressure for a solo cave dive?

No offense but that’s not something I will share publicly or with someone I don’t know very well. Let’s just say very very conservative

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

So @OrcasC205 can attest to this, but there is a great GUE community in Seattle. I'll name drop some people specifically. Insteuctors like Guy Shockey, Kees Leverenz, Alex Adolfi are all great instructors without an ounce of GI3 in their blood. I don't know James Fraser but I would wager he's the same. The Seattle GUE divers themselves are supportive, even diving with non-GUE divers recreationally in non-GUE configurations. Gasp ! The horror!

Now everyone in my area with whom I've spoken to about their fundies courses have raved about the quality of instruction. They did not have elitist attitudes, they were simply thrilled about gaining solid recreational skills. I think they should speak out about their positive experiences.

I can't speak for other GUE communities and instructors (though the LAUE group seems solid from what I can tell from a distance). I will say that some of the experienced GUE divers from one particular region could tone it down a bit, or STFU. But I know that won't happen with their egos with quite often trying to stir the pot. But I don't take that as a reflection on the organization, just those individuals.

I would recommend people getting know know the closest GUE community and see for themselves. Most of those folks are not active on SB. I can't imagine why that would be <heavy sarcasm>.

 

[SpeedyJ]

76 pages... and so many misconceptions.

Its easy to get bogged down in the SOPs and fail to see the forest for the trees. As a full time devils advocate, I've spent hours discussing various aspects of "why _____" with GUE instructors. I've barely scratched the surface, but over time the answers have made more and more sense for me, informing how I want to develop as a diver and conduct my diving.

Frankly, I don't think you can truly learn about how GUE does things from the internet. They've built something bigger than a set of SOPs, or a specific gear configuration, or way of doing a skill. Even taking Fundies isn't enough to truly encapsulate the holistic approach that has driven GUE from day 1. That "something bigger" is key to what makes GUE unique, and not just another indistinguishable certification agency.

For the truly curious, a Fundies class can be a great experience - especially if you have an instructor who truly welcomes philosophical inquiry and supports your self-reflection on your own diving. For those that don't want to take that step, safe and happy diving to you.

 

[Lorenzoid]

there is a great GUE community in Seattle. I'll name drop some people specifically. Insteuctors like Guy Shockey, Kees Leverenz, Alex Adolfi are all great instructors without an ounce of GI3 in their blood. I don't know James Fraser but I would wager he's the same. The Seattle GUE divers themselves are supportive, even diving with non-GUE divers recreationally in non-GUE configurations. Gasp ! The horror!

I met Guy only once--a number of years ago, when my wife and I were struggling with all this GUE stuff post-Fundies and were gearing up at a picnic table to do some skills practice. Guy was participating in a class nearby and had seen us looking like we were new to the GUE stuff and just walked over and introduced himself, offered a few helpful and encouraging words, and went back to his class. What a great impression he made on us. I have yet to meet any of these GUE jerk bogeymen that I read about from old timers. Oh, I'm sure there are some, as there are in any organization.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

So @OrcasC205 can attest to this, but there is a great GUE community in Seattle. I'll name drop some people specifically. Insteuctors like Guy Shockey, Kees Leverenz, Alex Adolfi are all great instructors without an ounce of GI3 in their blood. I don't know James Fraser but I would wager he's the same. The Seattle GUE divers themselves are supportive, even diving with non-GUE divers recreationally in non-GUE configurations. Gasp ! The horror!

Now everyone in my area with whom I've spoken to about their fundies courses have raved about the quality of instruction. They did not have elitist attitudes, they were simply thrilled about gaining solid recreational skills. I think they should speak out about their positive experiences.

I can't speak for other GUE communities and instructors (though the LAUE group seems solid from what I can tell from a distance). I will say that some of the experienced GUE divers from one particular region could tone it down a bit, or STFU. But I know that won't happen with their egos with quite often trying to stir the pot. But I don't take that as a reflection on the organization, just those individuals.

I would recommend people getting know know the closest GUE community and see for themselves. Most of those folks are not active on SB. I can't imagine why that would be <heavy sarcasm>.

This made me think about my time in the UAE where I met multiple GUE instructors from many different levels. I remember one female who lived GUE. She was all in but was one of the coolest people I met. Even wanted to do some dives with me (someone not diving in a GUE config) to take pics of me penetrating wrecks in sidemount. We even had conversations about sidemount and the possibility of me teaching her.

I also met some who looked down on me because I was such a sidemount advocate or because I used to say I don't dive DIR, I dive DIRC (Do I Really Care) even though much of my backmount kit was setup in a DIR style (my main tech instructor was a UTD IE). They looked down on me because of the CCR I chose to use as well. As a matter of fact, one of the biggest GUE guys in the UAE at the time refused to even acknowledge me due to these things. He would dive out of the center I was working at and even when I said 'Good Morning' he would turn the other way and pretend he didn't hear me. The funny thing is, we NEVER talked so it wasn't like he knew anything about me. All he knew was that I was a sidemount guy and that was enough, or I am assuming it was, to make him never want to speak to me.

I do believe in team diving because the one redundant thing we don't have when solo diving is a redundant brain. Side note: I have done my fair share of solo dives as well. So I share some of the same philosophies but am I don't seem them as being hard and fast rules. Different circumstances call for different configs and I can easily adjust as needed.

I know that in order to teach at Deep Dive Dubai, one is forced to take and pass Fundies.....I see this as nothing but a money grab. Sure, some can say it is QC to make sure instructors have proper skills...but there is zero need for a PADI instructor ( I am not a PADI instructor) to take fundies in order to teach the same things they already teach. This never sat well with me.

Having said all of that, I believe you are right, just like in any organization, there are good people and people who are shite. The problem is, the shite people take it to extremes, like ignoring someone so blatantly others took notice and wondered if we had some sort of argument. The extremists will always be off-putting and ruin what may or may not be a good thing.

 

[LiteHedded]

It's clear from your tirade that YOU care a lot!
LOL

Your reading comprehension needs work. I give zero ***** if u solo dive or whether you ever take a gue class (or if anyone does).

The people in here getting all worked up one way or another likely have a fair bit less GUE Experience than I do. Fundies grads or people “who could get a tech pass easy if they wanted” or Pete who once upon a time appeared in a GUE promotional video

It’s just scuba diving. Do it however you want to.

People with the most hardline opinions on this stuff normally don’t know wtf they’re talking about.

Cheers.