DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[crofrog]

1. What is the benefit to a typical OW diver to having a time limit on the required swim?
2. Predive checks are also required for other agencies. They don't use GUE EDGE, but predive checks are absolutely required.
3. Buoyancy and trim are very much part of the current PADI requirements.
4. Safe ascent procedures are absolutely taught in all standard course. There is absolutely no research whatsoever that the GUE min deco ascent strategy is any bit superior to the one taught by the rest of the world. A couple of years ago I contacted GUE headquarters and asked for a specific explanation of the rationale for the min deco approach, and I got a detailed response. I can provide that for you if you wish. My quick summary for this is simply to repeat that GUE has no research to cite indicating it is a safer ascent strategy than any the standard one used by just about everyone else.
5. The standard buddy system calls for divers to stay together, which would include during descent.
6. Current PADI standards include SMB.

1. fitness to dive. I've had to pull someone out of the water when they couldn't swim back to the boat against a slight current

2. In my experience they are not as comphrensive as the GUEEDGE system and they are not a demonstrated and evaluated skill in the WRSTC standards

3. The recent PADI certified divers I've seen seem to be hit or miss, but I've heard that changes are underway to make this a more important part, and I know many of the SSI instructors locally are teaching neutral now. This is the positive change that GUE and DIR were hoping to instill in the community.

4. I agree there is limited to no decompression research to support min-deco ascents as being safer from a decompression standpoint, the control required to execute it though brings substational more awareness to ascent speed and provides a more effective strategy for managing the ascent speed. I've seen _many_ new divers told to ascend at 30ft/min and are unable to do so effectively because they're not given tools to manage it. Stopping every 10ft for 30 seconds slows the ascent down and provides an actionable goal, and an objective standard for which to measure against.

5. It was not something in my OW class or in OW classes I've observed that was required for certification. This is frequently witnessed in buddies becoming separated on the descent, which is the most frequent time to experience issues with the dive. Team separation on the descent appears to be a causal issue for at least one GUE trained diver fatality (Lynne)

6. Do they require a DSMB? If so that's good it's not included in the WRSTC standards, and I was unaware that it was a required skill for OW, I knew they had a separate class for it.

 

[crofrog]

Well, my only goal in participating in this thread was to correct some mistaken beliefs about instructional theory. It is plain that this thread has reached the point of some many before this, so I will sign off by agreeing that the lowliest rec pass GUE Fundamentals student is far superior to the finest of technical divers trained by other organizations. The next time I am blessed to be in the presence of such a diver, I will bow to his or her vast superiority, admit that I am but I am but pond scum in that exalted presence, and hope to be rewarded for my groveling with a condescending pat on the head.

I don't think that anyone on either side of the table said that if you remove your emotions from it.

 

[barth]

Smaller and lighter till you add bailout. Which the GUE config already has.

Depends on what kind of dive you’re doing. I did dives with gue ccr divers in a mine. 90% was 24 meter or 80 feet deep. 10% was 130 feet or 42 meter deep.

If you bring 12/65 for a dive like that in your doubles for bailout and dilluent you need more bailout then other divers. It’s not easy to change mix in the doubles from 10/70 to 18/45 if you already got 200 bar 10/70.



I did a second dive in the mine at 24 meter /80 feet for 50 minutes. My dilluent and backgas was 18/45. I also had to bring ean32 or 30/30 (and oxygen). 18/45 was enough bailout, but breathing 18/45 for 25 minutes at 24 meter / 80 feet is not a good idea.

Sometimes you bring a lot of bailout in the doubles, but you can only use it as dilluent and you need stages for bailout… ( Or you can use a small amount of gas in doubles as bailout but want to switch as soon as possible to a stage.)

 

[Adobo]

This discussion saddens me a fair bit. This idea that only an "elite few" can earn a GUE fundies rec pass is simply false. Teach NB/T in open water, require solid basic skills in all following training courses (if any) and a rec pass is a easily attainable.

If you build a house on sand, it won't stand up in a storm. Build it on rock, and it will.

If students are "failing" fundies left and right, their OW instructor is to blame. Not GUE setting the bar too high. Their instructor who certified them placed it too low.

We have to be honest in that most training under WRSTC agencies sucks. Therein lies the problem, not GUE's "high" standards. I don't consider GUE's standards high. I consider them to be appropriate.

i am exhibit A demonstrating that not only can non-elite people/divers achieve a fundies tech pass, one can go on and get passing grades in other GUE classes.

 

[PfcAJ]

Depends on what kind of dive you’re doing. I did dives with gue ccr divers in a mine. 90% was 24 meter or 80 feet deep. 10% was 130 feet or 42 meter deep.

If you bring 12/65 for a dive like that in your doubles for bailout and dilluent you need more bailout then other divers. It’s not easy to change mix in the doubles from 10/70 to 18/45 if you already got 200 bar 10/70.



I did a second dive in the mine at 24 meter /80 feet for 50 minutes. My dilluent and backgas was 18/45. I also had to bring ean32 or 30/30 (and oxygen). 18/45 was enough bailout, but breathing 18/45 for 25 minutes at 24 meter / 80 feet is not a good idea.

Sometimes you bring a lot of bailout in the doubles, but you can only use it as dilluent and you need stages for bailout… ( Or you can use a small amount of gas in doubles as bailout but want to switch as soon as possible to a stage.)

Why would you bring 12% for a dive like that?

25mins on 18% isn’t going to give you some crazy deco. Just a lighter wallet.

Choosing the wrong gas as bailout is a thing. “It’s what I had” isn’t really a great excuse.

 

[Doby45]

No.

Not all "tube" style rebreathers can be modified for mounting a pair of 7 litre cylinders plus Oxygen and suit inflate. They get unwieldy and heavy.

Normal rebreathers are dived with the appropriate bailout cylinders attached and 3 litre oxygen and diluent so are smaller and lighter. GUE's JJ modifications — the twin 7 litre diluent with soft manifold and longhose — appear to have come straight out of certain styles of cave diving and is quite rare in the rebreather community, I.e. the community outside of GUE.

Funny, the Fathom sets up exactly like the JJ for boat diving. Two 46/50 cuft tanks mounted on the back with lola valves and 2l O2 and inflate bottles.

 

[Manatee Diver]

Funny, the Fathom sets up exactly like the JJ for boat diving. Two 46/50 cuft tanks mounted on the back with lola valves and 2l O2 and inflate bottles.

Not really surprising when you consider that the KUR and WKPP guys often are friends.

 

[barth]

Why would you bring 12% for a dive like that?

25mins on 18% isn’t going to give you some crazy deco. Just a lighter wallet.

Choosing the wrong gas as bailout is a thing. “It’s what I had” isn’t really a great excuse.

Because the diver did a wreck dive trip to deep wrecks a couple of weeks before we went to a mine. He did use 10/70 for the wreck dive trip and there was still a lot of gas in his doubles. He could add ean32 but not enough to change the mix to 18/45 before he would reach max fill pressure.

Another diver went to do a trip one week after diving a mine. If he would fill his doubles with 18/45 before we would dive the mine there would be a lot of gas in his doubles. Then it wouldn’t be possible the ad helium and change the mix to 10/70 because his tanks are already >200 bar.

I’m always using 18/45 as dilluent and bailout for my gue jj ccr. But it’s not an incident, a buddy who is at the dive site with a diluent and bailout in his doubles which is not optimized for the dive.

 

[flymolo]

Funny, the Fathom sets up exactly like the JJ for boat diving. Two 46/50 cuft tanks mounted on the back with lola valves and 2l O2 and inflate bottles.

I have also seen it done on an SF2, a Meg, and the Divesoft Liberty

 

[tursiops]

a. Must be able to swim at least 300 yds/275 m in less than 14 minutes without stopping.

1. What is the benefit to a typical OW diver to having a time limit on the required swim?

For reference, a PADI DM must swim 400 yards in less than 12 minutes, so that is like 300 yards in less than 9 minutes. 14 minutes for that distance does not seem very demanding.