DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It’s a question I always want to ask but I wonder if it will anger some people. I think that’s similar to what @Wibble is asking.

Is there any plans to have a recreational CCR configuration (for depths similar to TDI extended range), I understand that the GUE JJ-CCR is a good configuration for exploration/complex dives, but maybe there is a demand for something more intermediate, or are we saying that there is no such thing?

I can't speak for GUE (obviously), but it is my understanding that the whole GUE system/philosophy was based on the end goal of "extreme" exploration. the WKPP project was really pushing the limits, and if I understand the history correctly, the folks to started GUE were having to figure a number of things out. So I would expect that the answer for a "recreational CCR configuration" would be a no.

 

[flymolo]

It’s a question I always want to ask but I wonder if it will anger some people. I think that’s similar to what @Wibble is asking.

Is there any plans to have a ‘recreational’ CCR configuration (for depths similar to TDI extended range), I understand that the GUE JJ-CCR is a good configuration for exploration/complex dives, but maybe there is a demand for something more intermediate, or are we saying that there is no such thing?

The "GUE JJ-CCR" configuration is really well suited for ~150' dives. With 100cf of bailout gas already on your back, you only need to sling a stage of 50% for bailout deco gas. It's not much different than diving doubles and great for jumping off boats.

I put quotes around "GUE JJ-CCR" because the configuration is not actually unique to GUE or JJs. You can configure most tube-style rebreathers the same way and I believe the configuration originated with PSCRs.

 

[mariosx]

Most recreational divers have never seen anyone with rock solid core skills.

That's one of my biggest pet peeves in the scuba business...

Divers get their OW without being able to see that... I don't know... hovering is possible! And they might dive their entire lifes without knowing that you can actually become better than bicycle kicking and hand waving. Thus, they settle for what they already got without a goal or a way towards improvement...

I was extremely lucky to by certified by a (non-GUE) instructor with solid skills on every aspect. She set me an example to look at and understand that I suck, and that I can reach this kind of performance. Then I was even more lucky to be surrounded by GUE buddies (one of them a WKPP legend) that showed what things I cannot enjoy due to pure trim/buoyancy control. If I was not as lucky, I might very well be thinking I am a superhero diver while silting everything at my back (I would think it as normal). And I have confirm this idea with friends of mine that had even more dives and cert than myself but I was the first one they actually saw hovering, and got motivated to take scuba more seriously after years. Yes, they had to wait for a bottom of the barrel GUE rec diver to show them that you don't have to hold on ropes or rocks to stay stop and relax.

 

[boulderjohn]

Maybe you missed the part about Fundies being invented to solve the problem of those who were not ready for cave/technical training. The majority -- almost all -- of those being trained under your hated WRSTC agencies (for whom you teach) have zero interest in cave or technical training, and lead a very pleasant recreational-diving life.

Thus, we are back to the basis of my (and other's) argument, scuba certifications are "bought". I would find it hard to believe anyone, after spending a few weeks working (or diving on) the cattle boats in South Florida, would make the statement that the "overwhelming majority [of divers] reaches or exceeds standard performance".

But you may be right, set the standards low enough, everyone passes, and you have your J-Curve.

Standards are designed to be appropriate for the level of the course being taken. If you are evaluating baseball players at tryouts, your standards would be very different between Senior Little League and Major Leagues, even though they are playing the same game on the same field.

I am very confident that the OW divers I certified over my career were more than ready to be successful on the OW dives they were about to take. That was my job. I expect much more in the Trimix class I am teaching now.

Are you suggesting that all divers at all levels should be judged on the same level of performance? Do you mock new OW students who you deem not ready for cave certification?

 

[Subcooled]

I can understand why someone who has determined they are in the first or second categories may continue to participate in threads about GUE: they may believe their circumstances could change in the future.

They might be curious and they might want to learn, but their only viable option - as of now - would forum threads.
Circumstances might change or they might not. Those people would still have learned something, at least.
If you would have two jobs and still struggle financially and no way out, then would you not look for information here?

But we do see people in the third category continue to participate in threads about GUE.

True.

I am a speleological cave diver (sidemount) and a search and recovery diver. Either I am diving team solo through some extremely confined space or I am diving in zero viz while having a rope tender. My third type of diving is historical diving. GUE does not teach these things. And yet here I am discussing GUE. I still love what GUE does for spacious cave diving and for open water diving. The team procedures and predive checks are golden. Standardization helps. We do standardization in speleological cave diving too, but it's different from GUE, and it's team based. I have been the guy interested in what GUE does while still seeking more specific instruction elsewhere. Some of my dive buddies are GUE trained - in environments suitable for them. Hence, I need to know a thing or two about GUE procedures, signs especially. Hope this helps.

And oh, there are always those know-it-all types. They are really annoying, unless they are me

Cynics here have posited that such people participate mostly to denigrate GUE's procedures or philosophies.

Sounds like you want a parliament without opposition.
Let people challenge you. Defend your cause.
Intelligent people will understand.
Although... sometimes there is a bit too much negativity, so you do have a point!

I suppose a less cynical way to say that would be that they participate to (oh so helpfully) offer a counterpoint view.

Without disagreement this would be a very boring place

 

[crofrog]

Mel,

Given that I used to go to 5th dimension, owned by the former business partner of AG, I'm quite familiar with the roots of fundies.
It sounds like it you haven't taken the course. As has beens stated clearly on the GUE website and by those who actually have experience taking the course, basic scuba skills are being covered: buoyancy (open water material), proper weighting (open water material), finning (more advanced than just open water, but definitely should be advanced open water material), controlled ascents/descents (open water material), DSMB deployment (open water material).

The only thing really beyond open water is team based diving, but that's a mindset and awareness. If all the above recreational skills were taught properly and consistently, AG wouldn't have created this course to just cover team based diving.

I think non-silting kicks should be part of open water training. Anyone who's dived in a quarry has seen why it should be taught.

 

[Wibble]

The "GUE JJ-CCR" configuration is really well suited for ~150' dives. With 100cf of bailout gas already on your back, you only need to sling a stage of 50% for bailout deco gas. It's not much different than diving doubles and great for jumping off boats.

I put quotes around "GUE JJ-CCR" because the configuration is not actually unique to GUE or JJs. You can configure most tube-style rebreathers the same way and I believe the configuration originated with PSCRs.

No.

Not all "tube" style rebreathers can be modified for mounting a pair of 7 litre cylinders plus Oxygen and suit inflate. They get unwieldy and heavy.

Normal rebreathers are dived with the appropriate bailout cylinders attached and 3 litre oxygen and diluent so are smaller and lighter. GUE's JJ modifications — the twin 7 litre diluent with soft manifold and longhose — appear to have come straight out of certain styles of cave diving and is quite rare in the rebreather community, I.e. the community outside of GUE.

 

[Lorenzoid]

The only thing really beyond open water is team based diving, but that's a mindset and awareness. If all the above recreational skills were taught properly and consistently, AG wouldn't have created this course to just cover team based diving.

Don't forget standardization (of gases, equipment, procedures, etc.). Some of that may overlap with team-based diving, but not all. Like true team-based diving, standardization goes beyond what I believe you're getting at when you refer to open water training. These facets of the GUE system are definitely not generic to all OW training. It's easy to focus too much on the buoyancy/trim/propulsion/control skills, because that's what everyone who has not (or not yet) taken Fundies is curious about. But I try not to forget the broader picture of what Fundies teaches: the GUE system.

Without disagreement this would be a very boring place

I agree. But seeing the same people interject the same, uh, counterpoints in discussions about how GUE approaches some aspect of diving wears on me. (Note: It should go without saying but I'll say it anyway that I'm expressing my personal views, not as a SB moderator.)

 

[crofrog]

Standards are designed to be appropriate for the level of the course being taken. If you are evaluating baseball players at tryouts, your standards would be very different between Senior Little League and Major Leagues, even though they are playing the same game on the same field.

WRSTC standards:
(2) Physical Conditioning and Watermanship Evaluation. The student shall effectively demonstrate basic watermanship ability by performing, to an instructor, the watermanship evaluation required by a training organization. This watermanship evaluation shall include either: a) continuous 200 yard (183 metre) surface distance swim and a 10 minute survival swim/float without the use of mask, fins, snorkel or of other swimming aids; b) 300 yard swim using mask, fins and snorkel, and a 10 minute survival swim/float without mask, fins, snorkel or other swimming aid. If an exposure suit is used, the wearer must be neutrally buoyant at the surface.


4.9 Open Water Scuba Skills. These open water scuba skills are to be performed while diving in the open water, wearing a minimum nstructional scuba diving system.

1. Diving system assembly and disassembly (at water's edge)
2. Equipment inspection (at water's edge)
3. Entries and exits
4. Proper Weighting
5. Mouthpiece clearing – snorkel and regulator
6. Regulator/snorkel exchanges at the surface
7. Controlled descents and ascents
8. Underwater swimming
9. Mask-clearing
10. Buddy-system techniques
11. Underwater and surface buoyancy control
12. Diver assistance techniques (self/buddy)
13. Surface-snorkel swimming with full diving system
14. Removal and replacement of weight/ballast system
15. Removal and replacement of scuba system
16. Out-of-air emergency alternatives
17. Equipment care and maintenance (at water's edge)
18. Underwater navigation

GUE rec1:

Students must demonstrate competence in the following skills to be certified as a GUE Recreational Diver Level 1 diver:

a. Must be able to swim at least 300 yds/275 m in less than 14 minutes without stopping. This test should be conducted in a swimsuit and, where necessary, appropriate thermal protection.​

b. Must be able to swim a distance of at least 50 ft/15 m on a breath hold while submerged.​

c. Demonstrate proficiency in safe diving techniques, including pre-dive preparation, in-water activity, and post-dive assessment.​

d. Demonstrate awareness of team member location and a concern for safety, responding quickly to visual indications and dive partner needs.​

e. Efficiently and comfortably demonstrate how to donate gas to an out-of-gas diver followed by an ascent to the surface utilizing minimum decompression ascent profile.​

f. Comfortably demonstrate at least two propulsion techniques that would be appropriate in delicate and/or silty environments.​

g. Demonstrate a safe and responsible demeanor throughout all training.​

h. Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim, i.e., approximate reference is a maximum of 30 degrees off horizontal while remaining within 5 ft/1.5 m of a target depth.​

i. Demonstrate proficiency in underwater communication.​

j. Demonstrate basic equipment proficiency and an understanding of the GUE equipment configuration.​

k. Demonstrate aptitude in the following open water skills: mask clearing, mask removal and replacement, regulator removal and exchange, long hose deployment.​

l. Demonstrate a comfortable demeanor while swimming without a mask in touch contact, followed by a switch to the backup mask.​

m. Demonstrate safe ascent and descent procedures.​

n. Demonstrate comprehension of the components necessary for a successful backward kick.​

o. Demonstrate proficiency in basic underwater compass navigation.​

p. Demonstrate proficiency in the Basic 5 rescue skills.​

q. Demonstrate reasonable proficiency in the ability to deploy a surface marker buoy while utilizing a spool​

Let's do some quick comparison

• No time limit on WRSTC swim test, no breath hold swim.
• GUE trains and requires demonstrated proficiency in pre-dive checks (GUE EDGE) and debriefing
• Requires demonstrated buoyancy and trim throughout the dive and skills
• Requires non-silting kicks
• Safe ascent procedures (GUE min deco ascent strategy)
• Safe descent (maintain team unity on descent)
• The beginning of a back kick (not just a parlor trick it's required for team unity)
• SMB deployment.

I think that not requiring trim and buoyancy, SMB deployment and inadequate and unevaluated pre-dive checks is a situation where the wrstc standards are failing new divers.

The recreational standards are also lower than the technical standards for GUE, and there are less required skills.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think non-silting kicks should be part of open water training. Anyone who's dived in a quarry has seen why it should be taught.

And also the Puget Sound.

I teach frog kicks in my open water courses. I spend some time in confined water with flutter kicks, mainly to teach to kick from the hip to avoid the habit of bicycle kicking forming.

I introduce backfinning. I do this on the surface on the back during the same and following sessions as frog kicks . I picked teaching this way from another DIR agency. All we need are fins, nothing else, not even mask. As they are face up on the surface, whether they are going forward or backwards, if they see their knees, they know they are breaking at the waist. I prefer this so the student gets used to the feeling of having their upper bodies and thighs in a straight line.

I don't understand the denial of the skills problems that we often see.