DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[rjack321]

I am arguing against the extreme going to other side where an instructor ends up a mere filter with people boasting about how many students fail rather than an educator who is bent on educating the students and doing all he can do to get them to the required level to pass.

This just doesnt happen - no GUE instructor goes down that expensive and time consuming path to take some egotistical joy in failing people.

 

[KevinNM]

At the end, do you want to train people and help them to achieve success or you want to haze people and let them fail because you failed them with your lack of instructor/coaching skills?

I’ve seen people with 20 total dives get a rec pass. It really isn’t an absurd standard. In some ways it’s easier if you don’t have a bunch of bad habits to unlearn. There is plenty of feedback and coaching to help you fix your issues. Tech pass is quite a bit harder, but you need that level of mastery to safely do cave or tech. You need to be able to hold you position and depth while working on other problems.

 

[BoltSnap]

This just doesnt happen - no GUE instructor goes down that expensive and time consuming path to take some egotistical joy in failing people.

I’ve seen people with 20 total dives get a rec pass. It really isn’t an absurd standard. In some ways it’s easier if you don’t have a bunch of bad habits to unlearn. There is plenty of feedback and coaching to help you fix your issues. Tech pass is quite a bit harder, but you need that level of mastery to safely do cave or tech. You need to be able to hold you position and depth while working on other problems.

Sounds good and reassuring. I may choose to take a GUE course when I have the chance to get out to Europe or US.

 

[mariosx]

That isn't what an educator and education all about. If you are going to test people at a certain level, you better training and coach people to that level or even a better level.

Yeah, well I guess we have different opinions on what the role of a different educators should be. You assume a universal objective of what's the goal of education is.
But the objective can be different, according to the program:

• A primary objective in first grade could be all the kids to count up to 10
• A primary objective in astronaut training might be to fill 3 crew seats for the next mission and guarantee that at least 3 people out of the THOUSANDS meet the minimum standards
• For GUE-F is multiobjective:
  • Improve the skills of all participants to the best possible given their time/effort/etc.
  • Evaluate them based on the standards.

It seems very simple to me to be honest, and I have experience as educator at university level. Not every single student was passing my class, and I was not expected to place more efford on each student than the one they were willing to put in the class.

What you are trying to rationalize is to justify for an uncaring and unqualified instructor to not do their job properly and educate the students on how to comply with certain standards.

You assume that everybody can learn anything at a given time. Which is utopian at best. People have very diverse skills and very diverse desires. It's impossible for any instructor to meet the goals for every students, unless if the bar is low. How many people can count up to 10? Most. How many people can solve equations of gravitational singularities? Not as many, even if they spent 2 lives next to an ideal instructor.

Testing in this context is more of "evaluation" to determine student's (and instructor's) deficiencies for them to remedy the deficiencies to reach acceptable level of competence and knowledge.

Potentially true. But the deficiencies of the instructor could be studied statistically from the results of the majority of the students. Standard deviations are a thing for a reason. Overfocusing on the -3 sigma is idealistic for hard topics.
There are certain topics even in my specialization that I don't have strong interest to learn, and I will not learn no matter the capabilities of an instructor. Why the instructor should be judged based on my case?

Essentially, just to give an excuse to the "instructor" to not live up to their responsibility.

What is the responsibility of the instructor? Because for me it changes with respect to the different objectives.

That's not what I said at all. please don't put words into my mouth I didn't say.

LOL. I didn't. I said that it "seems" that you follow a more inclusive perspective. That statement OBVIOUSLY expresses my perception.

At the end, do you want to train people and help them to achieve success or you want to haze people and let them fail because you failed them with your lack of instructor/coaching skills?

Define success and failure and I might be able to answer that. For this purpose you need to define a clear objective so I will direct you to the top of this comment.

 

[LiteHedded]

Sounds good and reassuring. I may choose to take a GUE course when I have the chance to get out to Europe or US.

I think you’d have a good time. They aren’t just in the eu and the us. My t2 instructor is based in Singapore. They’re all over

 

[berndo]

I am arguing against the extreme going to other side where an instructor ends up a mere filter with people boasting about how many students fail rather than an educator who is bent on educating the students and doing all he can do to get them to the required level to pass.

Well, as I started out, this is the impression that one gets from reading this thread and others. Not just me, many others do.

I'm obviously not a fan but I don't think many people are under the impression that they just filter instead of train.
Actually the other agencies should do more filtering do keep some people out of cave and deco diving, for their own sake. When somebody sucks at the basics they shouldn't progress, let alone becoming an instructor.

That’s why I said this thread is dumb. Most commenters don’t know what they’re talking about

The thread was asking none gue people though. The topic is kinda of an invite for a free for all. Govern your expectations accordingly.

 

[berndo]

I may choose to take a GUE course when I have the chance to get out to Europe or US.

Don't do it. They'll get you on that e-meter and you'll end up 20 grand in the hole, with a goofy t-shirt and an inflated 'tech' diver ego that makes you wanna evangelise.

 

[JoeTPhilly]

Maybe scuba instruction would be better served if the instructor wasn't also the evaluator. One would take a class to learn the skills to pass the test conducted by an independent person or panel.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

I don’t have a dog in this fight but, for what it’s worth, Ginti’s comments project a very well rounded and considered view of his experiences with GUE. Exactly the outlook that reflects well on an organisation, not a polarised view from fringe advocates or detractors.

I also don't have a dog in this fight......but for what it's worth, in Post #822 of this thread, Doc Harry's comments also project a well rounded account and view of his actual and factual experience with GUE.... In my opinion his account is not a polarized view from a fringe advocate or a detractor.....and I believe him to be an honest and square shooter......... and as an AIr Force vet myself, I also very much can appreciate the benefits and advantages of a standardized program. From 1973 to 1977, my AF designation was 92270, Aircrew Life Support .....so I get the importance of standardized program and equipment considerations.

I also thank Doc Harry for his service. Here is his exact and actual cut and paste account on SB Post 822 of his experience with GUE.

I used to fly combat jets from aircraft carriers. The Navy has a standardized program for flying, which I loved.

When I started my PADI OW training, my first impression of the training and gear was, "This is bull ****." While doing more research, I stumbled across GUE and I was all in. The standardized program is exactly what I was looking for. My first BC was a BP/W.

When I signed up for GUE training, I knew nothing of the controversies surrounding GUE.

I told Dean before the class that I was a new vacation diver (80 dives in 3 years) and I really needed good training and constructive feedback. I was tired of PADI instructors blowing smoke up my ass and always telling me I was doing great without offering help to correct my deficiencies. I told him that I didn't know if I was a good or bad diver because I never got effective feedback from PADI.

Dean put me in doubles for the class, with an oversized wing for steel doubles, and I did not receive any constructive feedback. He and the other two instructors viciously ridiculed me, blamed me for their errors.

Dean constantly ridiculed me for not contacting other Fundies students to get the class handout before the class, which I had no idea that I was supposed to do. Dean refused to give me a class handout, kept asking me questions from the handout, and incessantly ridiculed me for not knowing the answers.

They jerry-rigged the weight on my doubles set, against my insistence that I use a V weight. They ridiculed me, and demanded that I dive with the jerry-rigged weight. I even offered to buy the V weight, but they refused to sell the weight to me. When their jerry-rigged weight fell off during a dive and I had an uncontrolled buoyant ascent from 30 feet, Dean screamed at me and failed me on the spot for the weight failure, then reversed the failure. Later during the class, the instructors played the video of my uncontrolled ascent over and over again, laughing at me at making degrading comments about me for 20 minutes.

The entire class was like this. Every minute of every day. I could tell you about a few dozen other bad experiences. I got a provisional, and when I returned to Florida for a re-do the abuse was 10x worse.

I did everything possible to make GUE work for me, but GUE made that impossible.

 

[berndo]

I also don't have a dog in this fight......but for what it's worth, in Post #822 of this thread, Doc Harry's comments ...

I mean, I love to hear people talk shiet all day but this sounds like he exaggerated a little. They laughed and made degrading comments for 20 min and refused to sell weight? And it was 10 times worse when he got went back? You buy that?