No alarms on any of those dives at all. My sac rate averages .41 thank you very much. Thats total average, including sightseeing and diving in cold water. I'm not a fat, out of shape diver. I'm 6' 2", 175 lbs. The amount of air left doesn't really matter nor does it prove your point. The NDL does... prove mine
Why are my Vytec and Cobra so different?
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that prove that you lied previously (you said that the COBRA did not error out on CNS tox on that profile, while your own pictures show that it does.)
You didn't attempt to cheat - congratulations.
You still haven't apologized for the lie though.
You didn't attempt to cheat - congratulations.
You still haven't apologized for the lie though.
I'm in the green at fifteen minutes... You don't know how your computer works. If I said that the maximum height wall you could jump off and live was 35', would you do it? If 35'1" would surely kill you? It's a computer you wacko... it can't reason anything. In diving, you stay "WITHIN" the limits to be conservative. The suunto is conservative and right in the manual says that you should stay well within all its limits. I recieved no error message at all, even when the OLF graph finally hit the red. It beeped and blinked just like if it were a deco stop dive. You say that its a rapid acceleration. The graph grows at the same rate throughout the dive... I guess you're the big lier now aren't you.
I guess in your mind, when a dive becomes a deco stop dive and the computer starts barking at you that its flawed as well. If you're an idiot (as you've proved you are) and f**k with your computer, its gonna bite you in the @ss. If you plan your dive using the plan mode, it will give you a maximum planeable depth of 100' using 32%. But you're too smart for that... you used the NOAA tables to plan your dive.
Where the hell do you see an error message? It is still in the green (means you're ok) at over 19 minutes at 107'. It's not saying you'll die... its saying that you're using up a lot of your OLF clock. Learn how to use your computer and you'll be ok. And if they're so flawed, stop buying them.
I tell no lies... Anyone can see that at 15 minutes at 107' that the OLF is within the green. On 80' dives to this depth on air for this time period, you'll get a similar CBT graph. You mistake the OLF for a daily CNS O2 clock which it really isn't. You can't compare the two any more than you can compare the suunto to your NOAA tables. Apples to Apples... need that one explained?
I guess in your mind, when a dive becomes a deco stop dive and the computer starts barking at you that its flawed as well. If you're an idiot (as you've proved you are) and f**k with your computer, its gonna bite you in the @ss. If you plan your dive using the plan mode, it will give you a maximum planeable depth of 100' using 32%. But you're too smart for that... you used the NOAA tables to plan your dive.
Where the hell do you see an error message? It is still in the green (means you're ok) at over 19 minutes at 107'. It's not saying you'll die... its saying that you're using up a lot of your OLF clock. Learn how to use your computer and you'll be ok. And if they're so flawed, stop buying them.
I tell no lies... Anyone can see that at 15 minutes at 107' that the OLF is within the green. On 80' dives to this depth on air for this time period, you'll get a similar CBT graph. You mistake the OLF for a daily CNS O2 clock which it really isn't. You can't compare the two any more than you can compare the suunto to your NOAA tables. Apples to Apples... need that one explained?
All that you prove is that you are good at putting a spin on things... You said the cobra would go into error mode at 15 minutes. It still seemed to be doing its job fine over 20 minutes into the dive. Yes, it did say that the OLF was high, but it never told me to shoot to the surface now did it? Do the simulation and then try to shoot to the surface and see what happens... you get the SLOW symbol... It never tells you to do an emergency ascent. It does freak out when you hit 750 psi and you're sitting at 107'... we all know why that is... no air, no live.
It is in the RED, it is beeping continually, and the segments over 70% loading are blinking.
If you read the frapping manual, it tells you that this is an indication that you have exceeded the safe CNS loading on that dive, which indicates a greatly increased risk of an O2 hit - just like exceeding the NDL indicates a greatly increased risk of a DCS hit (unless you decompress, of course.)
However, that is simply not true. The computer is wrong.
The plan function only works in increments of 10'. However, we dont' dive in increments of only 10', do we? No - we dive in increments of a few inches, and those of us with good buoyancy skills can nail depths within a foot or so.
The rate of CNS loading is outrageously fast at that depth. In fact, it gives you a CNS warning (in the yellow) at about 17 minutes, and errors out (CNS in the red and continual beeping) at ~20-21 minutes. It also won't STOP loading and beeping until you ascend to about 26'.
This is what you said your Cobra DID NOT DO in the previous thread. Now you say "oh, it does, but don't do that."
So what is it Jamei? Either it does or it does not. Either its wrong or it is not.
You say that you shouldn't go to the limit on the computer. I say that I'm not going to the limit. Unlike the NDL, a 1000% acceleration of the CNS loading is not "going to the limit" - its BROKEN!
And you still don't have the stones to admit that in the previous thread you simply lied about how the Cobra behaved.
I do no such thing. The manual (you did bother to read it, did you not?) clearly states that the OLF graph shows the HIGHER of either (1) systemic (whole-body) toxicity, or (2) CNS toxicity. The latter is what kills you with a seizure (the former causes pulmonary trouble), and the latter is what is represented by the "single exposure" limits on the NOAA tables. The former is what is represented by the 24-hour (repetitive exposure) limits.
You might try reading the manual for the computer you tout and own some time. While the Suuntos are nice computers, and I personally like my Vytec (which doesn't have this bug) a lot, I am fully aware that the CNS computation on the Vyper and Cobra is junk and, effectively, worthelss - in particular they will claim you are about to tox if you decide to dive a PO2 exposure approaching or over 1.4.
Charlie99
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When all of the back and forth between you and Genesis is stripped away, there are 2 things he claims about the Cobra and/or Vyper.
1. Even if you set the ppO2 alarm to 1.6ata, you still have very rapid (approx 10 times NOAA CNS clock rate) running up of the CNS clock once you are past 1.4ppO2.
2. When you set the ppO2 alarm to 1.4ata, the CNS clock accelerates by approximately a factor of 10 about 1' BEFORE the 1.4ppO2 CNS alarm is indicated.
Do you, or do you not agree with those two points?
Since I'm a rather simple minded person, please just answer those 2 questions directly.
1. Even if you set the ppO2 alarm to 1.6ata, you still have very rapid (approx 10 times NOAA CNS clock rate) running up of the CNS clock once you are past 1.4ppO2.
2. When you set the ppO2 alarm to 1.4ata, the CNS clock accelerates by approximately a factor of 10 about 1' BEFORE the 1.4ppO2 CNS alarm is indicated.
Do you, or do you not agree with those two points?
Since I'm a rather simple minded person, please just answer those 2 questions directly.
no blinking... no blinking on ascent. When a Suunto errors out (as you erroneously call it), it locks up and goes into gauge only mode. It didn't do that at all. You're the lier that said it did that at 15 minutes. You can't complain when you get an OLF warning (it being in the yellow/red) at 22 minutes on a 107' dive. It doesn't say shoot to the surface and if YOU read the manual you'll see that it never says to do this. It says an O2 hit is more likely. Its a friggin warning is all. If you don't have enough of a brain to plan your dive and think for yourself, don't dive. It and every other Nitrox training info says to stay well within the limits. They also say that you can get an O2 hit at any time. Well ****, I guess we better just not dive nitrox then should we Karl. The manual and anything else you WILL EVER read about nitrox says that even though you are well within the limits, you are not safe from an O2 hit. If you dive nitrox, it is 100% your responsibility to know this and because of that you should know what to do in such a situation. Just because you did or didn't exceed the safe limits suunto sets forth does not mean that you will or will not suffer from an O2 hit. You are at risk any time you use nitrox close to its MOD. 107' is not well within the limits. 107' and a 1 cm violates the MOD of the suunto.
You will surely say that its so accelerated (the OLF graph rate) on this dive. It isn't at all. That is easy to see. The rate, given the same depth throughout the dive does not change. If you're at 107' at 2 minutes into the dive, are you telling me that in 13 minutes, you don't notice that the OLF graph is getting used up? At what point does this acceleration take place? does it go from 1 bar at 3 or 4 minutes to 8 bars at 6 minutes? No, its a gradual climb throughout the entire dive. If you don't pay attention to the OLF until 15 minutes, who's fault is that? You have at least 15 minutes at the VERY MINIMUM to see the rate that the OLF graph is being growing. That isn't so rapid now is it? From my pictures you can clearly see that from 15 minutes to almost 20 minutes, the OLF graph climbs only one bar. In four minutes, you couldn't see that you needed to start your ascent soon? That is the basis for YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT ISN'T IT? Start your ascent at 15 minutes as any good diver would know to do given the info his/her computer provides them and you'll never hear the first peep out of your suunto.
On the other hand if you're aren't the smartest kid in class...
Any idiot that dives 32% to 107' for 22 minutes probably is stupid enough to shoot to the surface. This person would also be dumb enough to fail to notice the OLF graph on his computer until he decided to ascend anyway or it beeped at him. Why use a computer if you aren't gonna listen to it and use it? Should this person be allowed to use nitrox? NO Should this person be allowed to dive to 107' on any gas? NO Should this person even be diving? I don't think so. Survival of the fittest. Do the dive and take your chances. Those that would be dumb enough to shoot to the surface I seriously doubt will do this profile ever in thier lives. If they do, it could quite possibly be their last. They have had the training and the info is right in their manual to read. If they forgot all their training and still do this dive and mess up... sadly, its their own fault
You will surely say that its so accelerated (the OLF graph rate) on this dive. It isn't at all. That is easy to see. The rate, given the same depth throughout the dive does not change. If you're at 107' at 2 minutes into the dive, are you telling me that in 13 minutes, you don't notice that the OLF graph is getting used up? At what point does this acceleration take place? does it go from 1 bar at 3 or 4 minutes to 8 bars at 6 minutes? No, its a gradual climb throughout the entire dive. If you don't pay attention to the OLF until 15 minutes, who's fault is that? You have at least 15 minutes at the VERY MINIMUM to see the rate that the OLF graph is being growing. That isn't so rapid now is it? From my pictures you can clearly see that from 15 minutes to almost 20 minutes, the OLF graph climbs only one bar. In four minutes, you couldn't see that you needed to start your ascent soon? That is the basis for YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT ISN'T IT? Start your ascent at 15 minutes as any good diver would know to do given the info his/her computer provides them and you'll never hear the first peep out of your suunto.
On the other hand if you're aren't the smartest kid in class...
Any idiot that dives 32% to 107' for 22 minutes probably is stupid enough to shoot to the surface. This person would also be dumb enough to fail to notice the OLF graph on his computer until he decided to ascend anyway or it beeped at him. Why use a computer if you aren't gonna listen to it and use it? Should this person be allowed to use nitrox? NO Should this person be allowed to dive to 107' on any gas? NO Should this person even be diving? I don't think so. Survival of the fittest. Do the dive and take your chances. Those that would be dumb enough to shoot to the surface I seriously doubt will do this profile ever in thier lives. If they do, it could quite possibly be their last. They have had the training and the info is right in their manual to read. If they forgot all their training and still do this dive and mess up... sadly, its their own fault
As for your allegations, there is nothing wrong with a 20 minute dive to 107' on 32% Nitrox. Nothing whatsoever. Why would I terminate a dive at 15 minutes when I have 10 minutes of NDL left, have half a bottle of gas left on my back, and am enjoying myself?
That dive (20 minutes) is within the NDL and represents less than 1/6th of the CNS loading permissible.
It is not even close to "pushing" the limits, nor is there anything wrong with such a dive profile.
In fact, even by the SSI TABLES such a dive leaves 5 minutes of NDL remaining, 2' of MOD (109' is the actual MOD for 32%), and consumes just 11% - yes, ELEVEN PERCENT - of the CNS "clock" limit.
Your continued bleating that such a dive profile is dangerous and that someone who would make such a dive shouldn't be permitted to dive Nitrox simply shows that you have no understanding of the issues involved when it comes to CNS exposures and O2 toxicity risk.
That dive (20 minutes) is within the NDL and represents less than 1/6th of the CNS loading permissible.
It is not even close to "pushing" the limits, nor is there anything wrong with such a dive profile.
In fact, even by the SSI TABLES such a dive leaves 5 minutes of NDL remaining, 2' of MOD (109' is the actual MOD for 32%), and consumes just 11% - yes, ELEVEN PERCENT - of the CNS "clock" limit.
Your continued bleating that such a dive profile is dangerous and that someone who would make such a dive shouldn't be permitted to dive Nitrox simply shows that you have no understanding of the issues involved when it comes to CNS exposures and O2 toxicity risk.
No prudent info on dives over 1.4 has been presented that I've seen.
Question 2, there is no rapid acceleration. There is a difference between speed and acceleration. To accelerate, you have to be gaining speed. The OLF rate on the dive in question remains exactly the same from the time you hit bottom (107' at around 2 minutes) until you begin to ascend. His point is that the OLF graph at some point in the dive all of a sudden goes into warp speed and before you can realize it, has "toxed" you and told you to shoot to the surface. Take a look at the pictures. Does a 10% increase in OLF in 5 minutes on a 107' dive seem that fast of an acceleration, or more correctly, of an increase?
The rate is faster at the MOD for obvious reasons than about it. If the dive computer is at 107' in a real dive, at least a part of your body is below 107'. We are not perfect. We can never maintain a dive at precisely 107' without at least part or all of our body descending below this limit.
Question 2, there is no rapid acceleration. There is a difference between speed and acceleration. To accelerate, you have to be gaining speed. The OLF rate on the dive in question remains exactly the same from the time you hit bottom (107' at around 2 minutes) until you begin to ascend. His point is that the OLF graph at some point in the dive all of a sudden goes into warp speed and before you can realize it, has "toxed" you and told you to shoot to the surface. Take a look at the pictures. Does a 10% increase in OLF in 5 minutes on a 107' dive seem that fast of an acceleration, or more correctly, of an increase?
The rate is faster at the MOD for obvious reasons than about it. If the dive computer is at 107' in a real dive, at least a part of your body is below 107'. We are not perfect. We can never maintain a dive at precisely 107' without at least part or all of our body descending below this limit.
You would because you are obviously relying on your computer to tell you what to do our you woudn't freak out when the OLF graph limits out at 22 minutes. Either rely on the computer or not, you can't mix and match. Use the tables or use the computer, but don't expect the computer to use the tables.
LEAVE THE TABLES OUT OF IT... You're an idiot... why do you keep going back to the tables... this has not one thing to do with the tables
Your argument is that the computer is unsafe and will cause a diver to die because the shoot to the surface. A diver that knows the tables like you keep talking about (I know them quite well myself) would never encounter the only problem you say exists with these computer.
LEAVE THE TABLES OUT OF IT... You're an idiot... why do you keep going back to the tables... this has not one thing to do with the tables
Your argument is that the computer is unsafe and will cause a diver to die because the shoot to the surface. A diver that knows the tables like you keep talking about (I know them quite well myself) would never encounter the only problem you say exists with these computer.
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