Why are my Vytec and Cobra so different?

[jamiei]

Genesis once bubbled...
Suunto does some VERY bizarre things with O2 exposure on the Vyper/Cobra (the Cobra has the EXACT SAME firmware as the Vyper, except for the AI - having now tested both, and now having one of each, I can say that with some certainty.)

The Cobra/Vyper grossly accelerate the O2 clock in some cases if you approach (and definitely if you exceed) a 1.4 PO2, even for a very short period of time.

"Grossly exceed", by the way, means TEN TIMES the proper exposure calculation according to the NOAA tables!

Karl, don't start this again... before you swore that the cobra and vyper had different firmware and that was why I couldn't replicate the simulation that you claimed was so accelerated and errored. Now you have a cobra and swear that they are the same and both have the same problem of CNS loading errors. You've just proved that your previous claims are bogus in my eyes. I never heard anything else about your report to the consumer safety folks or from suunto.

I did the exact same simulation you did on your vyper on my cobra and the results were nothing like what you claimed. Now you admit that as the suunto america rep said (and you previously denied and said he didn't know what he was talking about) that the cobra and vyper, in fact do have the same firmware. CNS loading was not out of the ordinary until you started violating the suunto limits. You claimed you would prove the problem existed... even building your own pot to do the dive that you said was so well within all the NOOA tables (even though the suunto isn't based on those tables...) but seems so impossible for you to actually replicate in real life. You did do a dive with the vyper set at the wrong mix (what was it 50% on a deep dive?) and it raised all heck but shouldn't it have on that dive? If it was so safe, why didn't you do the dive with the mix you programmed in the vyper?

The Suunto Cobra and Vyper are conservative computers and we all know that. They're for recreational divers and conservatism is what we're all taught. No one should expect them to follow the NOOA tables like Karl does for some odd reason. If you don't want a conservative computer, stop buying them Karl. For the record, Suunto's are not grossly conservative as Karl has claimed on many occasions and never has proved. Now, since he admits the cobra and vyper are the same except for the AI feature of the cobra, he has further discredited all his claims of a " **SERIOUS BUG** in CNS O2 computation".

For all those that really care to know the truth, I really doubt that Genesis ever compares apples to apples on anything he does. I doubt that the vytec was actually set to the same specs as the vyper during his "tests". I'm sure the vytec was set to the more liberal settings and he probably even set the vyper to be more conservative just to try to prove his point and show a big difference in them. I also firmly believe that the algorithm for the vyper/cobra and vytec are the same as mentioned in this thread. There's never been any mention of there being differnt suunto RGBMs. Anyone have any real info on this? The only issue with any suunto that I know of that was confirmed was a recall of the first vytecs because of a problem with the simulation mode which carl so loves.

 

[Genesis]

You claimed that the Cobra could not be coaxed into the same error that the Vyper has. My statement was that the firmware had to be different if the simulation that I ran on the Vyper did not produce the same issue on the COBRA. Why? Because it shows up on one and not the other.

I didn't (at the time) have a Cobra. Now I do.

Set for 32% Nitrox, the MOD according to the computer is 107'. This is correct using the (as claimed by Suunto) overstated O2 percentage of 1%, or 33%.

Go into SIMDIVE, take the computer to 107', and in approximately 15 minutes you get a CNS warning, and a hard CNS error (e.g. reached 100% loading) in 17-20 minutes (depending on how fast you decend, etc.) This is despite the fact that according to the NOAA tables the proper exposure limit for PO2 of 1.4 is 150 minutes for a single dive, and 180 minutes in 24 hours.

At no time does the alarm for excessive PO2 sound, because you have not exceeded a 1.4 PO2.

The CPSC has my report, has confirmed it by postal mail, and has been sent a written copy with my signature on it. So does Suunto. Aqualung US (the US importer) has responded with a "I dunno", and Suunto Finland has not responded at all.

If the gross acceleration of the Vyper/Cobra whenever you exceed a PO2 of 1.4 does not bother you, then use the computer in peace. Just be aware that any CNS "alarm" you receive may well be BOGUS and do not freak out if you get one, because it very well might. Note that setting the CNS limit in the computer to 1.5 or 1.6 does NOT affect the loading computation!

The effect of this is that the Vyper and Cobra are close to useless for computing your CNS O2 loading, as they will yell at you when it is completely irrational to do so. As a cosequence if you're going to dive Nitrox with them, and get anywhere NEAR the actual MOD of your mix, you need to do ALL your CNS computations by HAND.

My test confirmed that indeed the actual dive behavior matches that of the simulation. Unfortunately, I did exceed the MOD on that dive, and as such I did not meet the "exact parameters" of the test I intended to run. Such is life diving in the real world.

I am still searching for access to a hyperbaric pot where I can test a "simulated" dive under tightly controlled conditions (e.g. where I can control the depth to a single foot over long periods of time.)

Below is a link to two PICTURES of my COBRA showing the EXACT problem Jamei CLAIMS does not exist.

He's LYING.

Either he never did the test I gave him to do or he did it and lied about the results.

Here's proof:
Warning limit @ 14 minutes (WAY accelerated from the NOAA clock limits.)

And the ERROR at 21 (it actually went off a bit earlier, but my first few "clicks" didn't catch the bar graph, as it is flashing and I have to catch it while its lit or it doesn't show up.) The NOAA limit for single-exposure CNS at PO2 of 1.4 is 150 minutes. Note that I still have NDL time remaining.

(Oh, Jamei said he had me on "ignore" too. That, quite obviously, is also a lie.)

 

[jamiei]

I'll do the sim and take a pic for you on my cobra... there's no way for us to know what mix you put in by that picture. I took you off ignore because your comments and posts are so funny to read.

Stop quoting the NOAA tables... are you so dumb that you can't understand that the suunto doesn't go by those and so anything linked to them is invalid. They are conservative...

You haven't confirmed anything. You did a BS dive telling the vyper that you were using almost 50% O2 and once again violated the MOD. If you want to prove your point that theres a problem, why the hell can't you do it without violating any limits?

You used 47% O2 and the MOD for the suunto, not those stupid tables you bring up is only 56. You admitted to going over 70'. You completed blew your test and its irrelevant.

doing the sim now...

 

[Genesis]

I'll do the sim and take a pic for you on my cobra... there's no way for us to know what mix you put in by that picture.

Yes there is. The PO2 alarm is not going off. Ergo, it must be no more than 32%, because 107' is the MOD for 32% according to the computer.

Of course you prefer to obfuscate and prevaricate rather than admit the truth.

I took you off ignore because your comments and posts are so funny to read.

In other words, you lied.

Stop quoting the NOAA tables... are you so dumb that you can't understand that the suunto doesn't go by those and so anything linked to them is invalid. They are conservative...

TEN PERCENT of the NOAA limits is "conservative?" No, its stupid. Insane. BROKEN even. Particularly when not documented. "Accelerate" the CNS loading? That's like calling a 300fpm ascent rate "accelerated."

Most of us would name that "Polaris."

[quote
You haven't confirmed anything. You did a BS dive telling the vyper that you were using almost 50% O2 and once again violated the MOD. If you want to prove your point that theres a problem, why the hell can't you do it without violating any limits?

The loading BEFORE I violated the MOD, as shown from the print out, is clearly bogus. Yes, I violated the MOD. The sounder depth indication turned out to be on a ledge which did not represent the actual distance to the sand. I decided to shoot dinner, having already seen that the computer was loading grossly beyond the actual CNS exposure time for that depth and time. The point was made; there was no point in hanging around for the remainder of the tank.

This weekend I should get another opportunity, since my g/f is certifying, and the place where she is has a depth of 57' to the sand. I KNOW that's the hard bottom, because I've dove there a dozen times before.

You used 47% O2 and the MOD for the suunto, not those stupid tables you bring up is only 56. You admitted to going over 70'. You completed blew your test and its irrelevant.

No its not; the CNS loading up to the point where I decended below the MOD is not only completely relavent but proves the point.

That I later in the dive exceeded the MOD doesn't matter to the data collected prior to that point because the violation had not yet happened. The computer does not have the ability to travel forward in time prior to an event and determine what I am GOING TO DO.

The setpoint for a PO2 of 1.6 @ 47% is 77' - per the Suunto computer. THE COMPUTER ALLOWS ME TO SET THAT EXPOSURE LIMIT; IT SHOULD HONOR IT.

As such the test results TO THE POINT OF VIOLATION OF THE MOD ARE valid.

doing the sim now...

Let's see the pictures big guy. It only takes 2-3 minutes to run that SIM. Oh, and don't cheat by backing off the depth - you can't exceed the MOD without it showing up on the maximum depth, but you can cheat without detection by backing off from 107.

 

[jamiei]

I'm posting quite a few pictures... we'll see. By the way, try using the plan mode on your cobra or vyper. It only allows you to go up to 100 feet in plan mode on 32%. I'll be glad to take pictures of the display every few minutes if you would like... no problem here with that.

 

[jamiei]

by the way, if you do the same dive to 106' like you should... since 107' is the absolute MOD... that doesn't mean you can sit on the bottom at 107' for the whole dive and expect everything to be A ok. Anyway the dive to 106' doesn't even hardly show on the calcs... All you prove is what we all already know... the suunto is conservative and you're a moron.

 

[Genesis]

by the way, if you do the same dive to 106' like you should... since 107' is the absolute MOD... that doesn't mean you can sit on the bottom at 107' for the whole dive and expect everything to be A ok.

Certainly you should be able to do exactly that. 107' is the MOD. You are not exceeding a 1.4 PO2 setpoint at 107'. You receive no alarm at 107'.

I have said repeatedly that at 106 it doesn't load nearly as quickly. The point is that at 107, which is a perfectly valid depth for that O2 setting, you get NO PO2 ALARM but the CNS exposure clocks at TEN TIMES the speed implied by the NOAA limits.

That the Suunto OVERSTATES the O2 percentage by 1% from what you set is "conservative."

That it miscalculates CNS loading is a bug, making the CNS computation invalid for its intended and claimed purpose - repetitive dive planning and tracking of CNS exposure.

So I was right Jamie and you admit that you lied in the previous thread where you claimed to have run that same SIM and didn't get the same result?

Sure looks like it.

That I had to post the PICTURES of the computer in that mode to prove your lie, and get you to recant, says volumes about your (lack of) honesty.

The reason you can't go to 110 in SIMPLAN is that for planning purposes 110 is below the MOD, and the Suunto computers will not permit you to plan a dive below the MOD. But 107 is not. Try setting the PO2 exposure limit to 1.5 or 1.6 and you will be able to do SIMPLANs below 100' on a 32% mix - up to 120' if you set an exposure limit of 1.6!

 

[jamiei]

Suunto Cobra Nitrox 32 simulations

keep refreshing the page... i'm adding more as I go

 

[Genesis]

That's because you're a hoover.

The SIMDIVE assumption for your SAC is 1.0 - which is about TWICE my consumption rate on an average "sightseeing" dive, and 60% above my consumption on relatively severe working (e.g. spearfishing, where I actually spear something that fights) dive.

So no, you're not "out of air." In fact, unless you're Joe Hoover, you should have a good 10 minutes of air time left before you invade the 700 psi reserve.

You do have three minutes of NDL left, but unfortunately you were just told that you must ascend like a missile because your PO2 is still loading, you're about to have an O2 hit, and oh, by the way, it won't stop bitc#ing at you about the PO2 loading until you hit a depth of approximately 26 feet. (PO2 < 0.5)

107 to 26' at high speed, when you have just a few minutes of NDL left, is very unwise. But that's exactly what the computer is telling you to do, by making the claim that you're about to have an O2 seizure and die.

Thanks for admitting that you lied in the previous thread Jamei - with photographic evidence (your own!) to back it up. I see you went back and removed your lie from the original thread - funny, that, isn't it?

 

[jamiei]

you want proof that its a direct descent? If I had a larger memory stick I would video the whole simulation and post it on my site. Anyone interested enough to make donations for one? There's a 64 mb one for $40... Genesis, you up for it? Ready to put your money where your mouth is as you say? Otherwise, I'll be glad to take the pictures of the simulation with my watch right beside it so you can see the time lapse. One picture every 2 minutes of the sim? that enough for you? If not, set the stage? You make the rules...

You were making up excuses before you ever saw the pictures... why if you're so confident?