Who "Fails" Open Water Scuba Certification and why

[Rose Robinson]

Can a Student Fail Open Water Scuba Certification? Does it really happen? Lots of non-divers interested in scuba ask me this. Lots of instructors like to talk about how many students they fail. As with teachers of any kind, this can add a sense of value to their education. How often do students actually fail and never end up earning their certification card?

JF,

No examination/test ever written was purposely designed to fail at ''student''.

There would be absolutely no purpose in a test that no-one passed.

Failure is caused by not applying ones self, unfamiliarity or not studying course material, physical limitations, lying, lack of real interest, health restrictions and the list can be expanded considerably.

Sometimes, if all the stars align, and you still leave failure open as an option, you will fail.

The key, ''is to not die trying'', as nothing is worth that!

Rose

 

[Colliam7]

Since there seem to be fewer and fewer people who are competent swimmers I heard some of the agencies made the swim optional and replaced it with the snorkel fin swim. Is that true?

It is true that there is now, for PADI and probably for many other agencies, an 'either-or' option for the swim. The scuba student can swim 200 yards/meters WITHOUT mask, fins, snorkel, OR 300 yards/meters WITH mask, fins snorkel.

I personally require students to complete the 300 yard M/F/S swim, and do not allow them to simply swim 200 yards. I believe the 300 yard M/F/S swim represents a valid test of their swimming ability and, moreover, it provides for me an assessment of their ability to breath through their mouth, and to swim using fins, both of which are important in scuba training and diving.

I have worked with several students who could swim - in fact, one that I particularly remember had been on his high school swim team some years before pursuing scuba training - but who had considerable difficulty breathing through their mouth with their face in the water, and using fins - they simply had trouble getting used to swimming with big 'things' on their feet.

I do not see the 300 yard M/F/S option as somehow allowing poor swimmers to 'get by'. Rather, it is an important assessment tool for me.

 

[boulderjohn]

JF,

No examination/test ever written was purposely designed to fail at ''student''.

There would be absolutely no purpose in a test that no-one passed.

Failure is caused by not applying ones self, unfamiliarity or not studying course material, physical limitations, lying, lack of real interest, health restrictions and the list can be expanded considerably.

Sometimes, if all the stars align, and you still leave failure open as an option, you will fail.

The key, ''is to not die trying'', as nothing is worth that!

Rose

When I started teaching decades ago, I was taught to design a test that would create a bell-shaped curve of results, which means my job was to ensure that a certain percentage of students failed. I was taught to include questions I was sure pretty much everyone would miss in order to make this happen. Years later, I learned that a test properly designed to test what students were taught (and were taught well) would never, ever produce a bell-shaped curve. Bell-shaped curve results in a class are caused by intentional test design (as I was taught), very poor instruction, or post assessment manipulation of results. A proper assessment in a well-taught class produces a J-curve, with most students doing well and the failures related almost exclusively to the people who were not trying.

Here is an explanation of post assessment manipulation.

The son of a friend of mine was a Freshman at Brown University, an elite school to which only elite students are admitted. The school required grade counseling sessions for freshman in accordance with their policy that allowed freshmen to drop out of classes at the last minute to minimize failures. (I am not sure exactly how it worked.) In his chemistry class, the professor was highly complimentary. He had an A going into the final exam, and she said his work was outstanding. She asked about future plans, and he said he wanted to be a doctor. She thought he would be a great one.

So he took the final exam and got an A, which made it incredible that his final grade for the class was a B. How could he have an A going into the final, get an A on the final, and get a B in the class? The professor explained that after the grade counseling sessions, all the failing students had dropped the class. Since she graded the class on a curve, that meant that all the grades had to slide down in order to make that nice bell-shaped curve. That meant students with solid passing grades, both in the regular class and the final, failed the class. That meant students like him, who had earned solid A's, had to drop down to a B. He said something about his plans to be a doctor, and the professor scoffed--he would never get into med school with a B in freshman chemistry. He is now an attorney.

 

[TMHeimer]

It is true that there is now, for PADI and probably for many other agencies, an 'either-or' option for the swim. The scuba student can swim 200 yards/meters WITHOUT mask, fins, snorkel, OR 300 yards/meters WITH mask, fins snorkel.

I personally require students to complete the 300 yard M/F/S swim, and do not allow them to simply swim 200 yards. I believe the 300 yard M/F/S swim represents a valid test of their swimming ability and, moreover, it provides for me an assessment of their ability to breath through their mouth, and to swim using fins, both of which are important in scuba training and diving.

I have worked with several students who could swim - in fact, one that I particularly remember had been on his high school swim team some years before pursuing scuba training - but who had considerable difficulty breathing through their mouth with their face in the water, and using fins - they simply had trouble getting used to swimming with big 'things' on their feet.

I do not see the 300 yard M/F/S option as somehow allowing poor swimmers to 'get by'. Rather, it is an important assessment tool for me.

From my rants years ago on "Going Pro" forum---
--swimming and diving/snorkeling are at best distant cousins.
--I would think a "real" swimmer would have no problem with the 300 m/f/s.
--IMHO, for me, the 300 m/f/s is way easier than the 200. All you need to do is put face in water and kick correctly. No proper swim stroke needed.
--whether you do the 200 or 300 should be the same for EVERY class. Not a choice by the instructor. Not by (I once saw) the class voting on which one. Not even somehow allowing each student to pick what they do. It should be the same for everyone, with the reasons being explained why the 200 or 300 is the better assessment. For some, doing the 300 and passing easily means they MAY not have even a concept of a proper swim stroke. I think everyone involved in any water activity in water they can't stand in should have a proper swim stroke. Not much to do with scuba, I know.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think everyone involved in any water activity in water they can't stand in should have a proper swim stroke. Not much to do with scuba, I know.

Should they also be able to quote the Pythagorean theorem? (As long as we are talking about requirements that don't relate to scuba.)

 

[Colliam7]

I would think a "real" swimmer would have no problem with the 300 m/f/s.

My experience - as an Instructor - has been quite different.

IMHO, for me, the 300 m/f/s is way easier than the 200. All you need to do is put face in water and kick correctly.

Ah, yes, that is exactly what they need to do - 'KICK CORRECTLY! That is part of the point here - many cannot, with those big, bulky fins on their feet. But, that is what they will need to be able to do underwater, isn't it? As for whether the '300 m/f/s' is easier, my experience - as an Instructor - has been quite different. It is not. The students are breathing through a tube, which may be a new experience for them. If they don't breathe slowly and deeply, they accumulate CO2. If they cannot use their fins, they make little or no progress, they therefore work much harder, which - coupled with poor breathing - may (and not infrequently does - compromise their ability to finish the swim (at least the first time).

whether you do the 200 or 300 should be the same for EVERY class.

Understandable point, and you are welcome to that opinion. But, apparently, the training agencies do not agree with you.

Not a choice by the instructor. Not by (I once saw) the class voting on which one. Not even somehow allowing each student to pick what they do. It should be the same for everyone, with the reasons being explained why the 200 or 300 is the better assessment.

FWIW, with my students there is no class vote. There is no picking by the student. There is only - in my class - what I require. And, I make it clear to them that the agency offers an 'either-or' option, but that I require one of the options, and I explain exactly why I require it (for the reasons I previously articulated). Now, if my particular agency were to change, and say it is ONLY one, I will do it. If PADI were to say that the 200 yard swim is what is required, fine. MY students would still have to do the 300 yard m/f/s IN ADDITION.

For some, doing the 300 and passing easily means they MAY not have even a concept of a proper swim stroke. I think everyone involved in any water activity in water they can't stand in should have a proper swim stroke. Not much to do with scuba, I know.

Yes, you are quite correct, it most definitely falls in the category of 'Not much to do with scuba'. Oh, and by the way, one thing that I say to my students - repeatedly, eternally, incessantly - is 'TAKE YOUR HANDS OUT OF THE EQUATION.' In fact, I DO NOT want them using their hands underwater, at all (OK, except to clear / defog their mask, to signal, to manipulate an inflator, etc.). They ultimately should be able to swim forward, to turn, to back up, ONLY WITH THEIR FINS. I do not need for them to look like Mike Nelson in some of the Sea Hunt episodes, swimming with his hands. In fact, I usually refer to those Sea Hunt images as exactly HOW NOT to propel yourself as a diver. (And, I am very fond of the Sea Hunt episodes, and recommend that my students seek them out and watch them.) So, whether or not they have an attractive, competent swim stroke is, for me, irrelevant. I DO want to be sure that they won't drown after reaching the surface - with their snorkel and mask in place, and their fins on.

This entire discussion is why people may fail scuba training, not about whether they have commendable swimming strokes. And, this train of discussion started as a response to questions about the fact that what is important is whether they are comfortable in the water. (AND, whether they can 'drown-proof' themselves.)

 

[lowwall]

Perhaps the point of requiring swimming ability without fins and mask is because divers sometimes find themselves in the water without one or the other. It would be nice if that wasn't a death sentence.

Likewise, I've heard that divers occasionally have to swim at the surface, even if they have an empty tank and no snorkel.

If I were devising the standard, I'd require competency in both. Call it 150m mask, fins and snorkel + 100m without any aids.

 

[TMHeimer]

Should they also be able to quote the Pythagorean theorem? (As long as we are talking about requirements that don't relate to scuba.)

No they shouldn't. I agree with Jim L. in that proper swimming is a "life skill". Perhaps if you live in an area where you'll never be in deep water you don't need it. You can fall off your private boat en route to the dive site--if you can't swim you could be fubar.

 

[boulderjohn]

No they shouldn't. I agree with Jim L. in that proper swimming is a "life skill". Perhaps if you live in an area where you'll never be in deep water you don't need it. You can fall off your private boat en route to the dive site--if you can't swim you could be fubar.

What would be the correct stroke to use while staying afloat while the boat picks you up? What would happen if you didn't perform that stroke within swimming standards?

 

[TMHeimer]

My experience - as an Instructor - has been quite different.Ah, yes, that is exactly what they need to do - 'KICK CORRECTLY! That is part of the point here - many cannot, with those big, bulky fins on their feet. But, that is what they will need to be able to do underwater, isn't it? As for whether the '300 m/f/s' is easier, my experience - as an Instructor - has been quite different. It is not. The students are breathing through a tube, which may be a new experience for them. If they don't breathe slowly and deeply, they accumulate CO2. If they cannot use their fins, they make little or no progress, they therefore work much harder, which - coupled with poor breathing - may (and not infrequently does - compromise their ability to finish the swim (at least the first time). Understandable point, and you are welcome to that opinion. But, apparently, the training agencies do not agree with you. FWIW, with my students there is no class vote. There is no picking by the student. There is only - in my class - what I require. And, I make it clear to them that the agency offers an 'either-or' option, but that I require one of the options, and I explain exactly why I require it (for the reasons I previously articulated). Now, if my particular agency were to change, and say it is ONLY one, I will do it. If PADI were to say that the 200 yard swim is what is required, fine. MY students would still have to do the 300 yard m/f/s IN ADDITION. Yes, you are quite correct, it most definitely falls in the category of 'Not much to do with scuba'. Oh, and by the way, one thing that I say to my students - repeatedly, eternally, incessantly - is 'TAKE YOUR HANDS OUT OF THE EQUATION.' In fact, I DO NOT want them using their hands underwater, at all (OK, except to clear / defog their mask, to signal, to manipulate an inflator, etc.). They ultimately should be able to swim forward, to turn, to back up, ONLY WITH THEIR FINS. I do not need for them to look like Mike Nelson in some of the Sea Hunt episodes, swimming with his hands. In fact, I usually refer to those Sea Hunt images as exactly HOW NOT to propel yourself as a diver. (And, I am very fond of the Sea Hunt episodes, and recommend that my students seek them out and watch them.) So, whether or not they have an attractive, competent swim stroke is, for me, irrelevant. I DO want to be sure that they won't drown after reaching the surface - with their snorkel and mask in place, and their fins on.

This entire discussion is why people may fail scuba training, not about whether they have commendable swimming strokes. And, this train of discussion started as a response to questions about the fact that what is important is whether they are comfortable in the water. (AND, whether they can 'drown-proof' themselves.)

I don't think we disagree on a lot, but will reply.
--I understand what you are saying about the difficulties some can have with using a snorkel and fins. Admit I look at that as someone who snorkeled for years and was a "water person" since a kid before getting OW age 51. I do agree all should do the 300. Also think all should have a reasonably proper swim stroke (see my reply to John)--perhaps even just doing one or 2 pool laps to show it.
-- If the agency requires the 200 only and you REQUIRE the 300 to pass, would you not be violating minimum standards?
--agree with you about non-use of hands. Except if both your legs cramp up, you are diving solo. Knowing that a breast stroke motion will create minimum drag and slowly move you (but of course, that is a rare situation).
-- Agree that comfortability in water is paramount, and that a proper swim stroke isn't necessarily a requirement for that. Again, see my reply to John. As well, "comfortability", like "mastery of skills" is something that is debated on SB.