White lies told by your LDS when you first started

[Scubatooth]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Because I later found out that that instructors opinion on what is best changes weekly depending on what new things he has to sell. Also of course because I used those fins long enough to know they are not the best. In fact I have use many different fins and I like tham all better.

well i can understand that one , have had that done to me, and i ignore that person. ? why didnt you like them ? well they cant be that bad if the UDT , EDU and SEAL teams are using them , and i like them and my sac has dropped dramatically since using them (going from 25- 30 psi/sac, to right around 15 during the dive and less then 11 psi a minute while hanging at 20 feet for the saftey stop .


to each is there own.

 

[Genesis]

I TRIED a pair of Jets.

They sucked, IMHO.

I like my TwinJets, and don't give a tinker's cuss if they're "DIR" or not. Air consumption and comfort are BOTH in the right direction when I'm using them.

 

[SeaJay]

I wasn't real crazy about them either.

But before I go and form a real opinion on them, I figure that I'll give them another shot. I didn't feel that these were really the right size.

That said, what's with that? I used a set of XL fins, and I have a size 11 (American) foot. While that's a bit on the larger side, it's by no means really an "XL." Keep in mind, too, that these were too small, even with a 3mm "sock" style bootie.

...So I need a size up. And a really serious boot in order to make up for the fin's horrible fit. I believe that if I get a size XL "Turtle Fin" and use them with a "sneaker" or "boot" style bootie (read: thick sole) then I might actually be able to achieve a decent fit, which is very vital to the proper transfer of power.

I think I'm just spoiled with my Quattros, which are big, soft, flexible paddle fins that "cup" the water when you kick, creating stability and working similarly to a split fin, only not so extreme. I am happy with this fin's ability to frog, helicopter and backward kick, and yet still be capable of running in a full-bore flutter when the current is whippin' by. Try that for more than 50 feet in a Jet Fin!

Sure, they're real stiff and exact and great for the funky kicks, but I really do feel that they're inappropriate for warmwater diving in a current, when you need to flutter at least as much as you frog, and thinner and lighter booties are more appropriate than the thick, boot-style booties (or drysuit booties.)

The bottom line, though, is that I can't use Jets under any circumstances. It's Turtles for me, if I go that route at all...

 

[Genesis]

I didn't bother trying the turtles.

The Jets fit me ok in the XL size and my drysuit; I have the "dry socks" on my suit, and wear a 3 mil bootie over that. They're spot-on with the fit.

HOWEVER, those are the biggest jets you can get! So if you have a bigger foot, or a bigger drysuit sock, that's all there is.

My issue with them is that they're worthless if you want (or need!) to use a flutter kick. You won't go anywhere, and you WILL cramp up. For frogs and such they're ok, but I can frog at least as well with my TwinJets as I can with them.....

Thought I'd give that Kool-Aid a sip, but didn't care for the taste and had to spit it out

 

[ScoobieDooo]

Oh boy this is gonna be fun.....

"To take the course here you need to have gear that we approve (so we know its safe), such as a twin valve snorkel (hint, hint), purge valve mask and fins like these here." (We JUST happen to SELL the ONLY twin valve snorkel being manuf right here - its just $52.00). Me: "But I have my own low volume tech mask here thats brand new?"

Then it was "Just $249 for the course plus books."

Me: "Well my friend just took it and she paid $189?"

Them: "Oh, she must have been a student to have gotten that rate. You must be confused."

Me: "No, she wasn't a student."

Them: "Oh she must have taken it at one of the colleges we offer it at then."

NO mention of check out dive fees and rental gear fees IF you hadn't bought the store's 'scuba package' for $2,500-3,5000 in your 5th WEEK of the BOW course AND/OR, it was gear that THEY approved of (which of course, if you hadn't bought Brand A that they represented - it WASN'T).

"You should sell that Halcyon wing and get yourself a good one."

"Oh all that mail order gear that is being sold is all the junk that can't sell in stores so it winds up down in Fla for some YaaHoo to buy while on vacation that doesn't know any better."

"No, you can't use that 7 ft long hose on your check out dives, we don't want to confuse everyone why you have one like that and they don't."

"Mail order is all the defective gear that the manufacturers can't sell at LDS's or stores so it gets sold to mail order firms."

"Oh he (referring to LDS #1) sells XXX gear, its junk - stay away from that.") (Brand #1 happens to be the best selling reg manuf ever in the history of scuba diving).

Instructor: "Snorkels are entanglement hazards? You tell YOUR friends who dive w/o one THEY are dangerous? I never heard of this 'DIR' thing."

This one is my favorite one though - BWOD. "Bungee wings of Death. Those wings are unsafe." Me: "Yeah but, I see pictures all the time of some very accomplished divers diving the Doria who are diving them?"

"You should take your AOW as soon as possible after getting certified - you don't need to wait."



....and I'm just getting warmed up.....

 

[SeaJay]

ROFLMAO...

I dunno how you could get the fit right, though... The foot pocket on those things was as tall as it was wide. I told someone somewhere else that they felt like "two buckets (which I put my forefoot in) with boards nailed to them."

Width-wise, I found them to be small. Height-wise, I found them to be horribly sloppy, and not at all helped by the fact that they only came up to mid-arch in length along the bottom of my foot. I'd kick, and they'd flex downward, pushing their way into my arch, causing cramps and pulling on my toes in a strange way. The spring straps didn't help either... They were simultaneously too flexible for a solid fit and soo tight to be comfortable.

Of course, a heavier bootie with a thick sole, placed in a larger (and longer) foot pocket might solve the problem. That's why I say that I need to try the next size up with a set of heavier booties. I think, too, that the spring straps might not bother me so much is I've got a thicker bootie on.

...Assuming that the above fixed the problem, I think that I would find these fins ideal for frog, mod frog, helicopter, and backward kicks, due to their stiff, coordinated blades. I think, too, that the short, wide blade would probably be a benefit in a cave or wreck, where long and difficult-to-coordinate fins are not ideal.

...So if Jets and Turtles are supposed to be the fin of choice for coordination and the "funky" kicks, then what does the Jetfin owner do when he needs a long-winded, powerful flutter kick (like in an ocean current)?

Ah, yes... The scooter.

Not that I want to "bust" on my own kind (DIR), but what was that ideal again? "Minimize gear?" "All that you need and nothing that you don't need?"

Sure, scooters are great... But there's something to be said about a good, solid, all-around fin that can do most of what the Jet does, but is still able to handle ocean currents without increasing the diver's gas consumption rate so bad that it requires a $4000 Gavin...

Of course, that said, Gavins are great fun... And the epitome of effortlessness...

 

[SeaJay]

ScoobieDooo once bubbled...

"No, you can't use that 7 ft long hose on your check out dives, we don't want to confuse everyone why you have one like that and they don't."

You're the second person I've heard say that. These people don't really believe this, do they?

Listen, if y'all ever do hear this and need proof that they're idiots, then just open the PADI AOW book. In the very beginning, (I believe it's page 8 if I'm not mistaken) PADI shows an example of an "advanced technical/overhead environment rig" that shows the use of a long primary hose.

...And it's right there, right in their own freakin' store...

 

[Genesis]

(yes, by the same people who originally trained me) that a BP+Wing+Long Hose was "only for cave divers" and was "dangerous to use in open water", because you had to give away your primary reg during an air-share.

I pointed out that the BC they had sold me, and which was firmly in the rack at that point with a tank on it, had an Air2 attached which, of course, required that I also give away my primary reg, and that not only did my instructor think this was fine, the owner of the shop, who was driving the boat that day and who I was speaking to, was the one who stocked and sold the damn things!

She didn't like that very much. It always bites when the blatent nonsense of the captain and owner of the shop is held up for all to see on the deck of a boat with 20 divers doing their SI with bemused smiles on their faces.

That was the last time I got on their boat, by the way. I have a "free" coupon for another boat dive from them (which I got when I got my cert); its sitting unused, and probably will remain that way. I don't pay people to abuse me; if I want that I can come in here and get it for free

This little episode CLEARLY pointed out the blatent hypocrisy that I later found was not confined to one shop - it was endemic to the "dive shop industry" in general. No, its not universal - but its a disease that infests the huge majority of shops, to the point that extraordinary care is required when dealing with these folks.

The pall this casts across the industry at the retail level when people figure out they've been misled, intentionally, and often for profit, just might have something to do with the 40% drop in retail sales over the last three years in the industry.

I know it was a major factor in my decision to buy my own fill station and shift my purchases almost exclusively online.

 

[SeaJay]

Yep, I'm with you on that one... I can't tell you how many times I've been abused by the LDS. My own personal LDS has been the very worst of the offenders.

...But I don't think it's always due to malicious intent. I think that more often than not, it's due to compelete and total double-ignorance. They don't know, and they don't know that they don't know.

The other day I walked into an LDS, and the manager, knowing that I was heading into some pretty hardcore wrecking (and looking for a new BC) immediately brought out this BEAST... The SeaQuest Raider... For me to check out. "You need this," is what I heard.

Later, I asked for a price on a Vytec computer... His shop: "I'll give you a deal for $1199. That's the best I can do." Online: "$690, shipped to you door."

You've got to be kidding!

I blew a little over $2k on gear last week... And not one dime of it went to my LDS.

I find that horrible, as I've always wanted to support them. But it's just more than I can stomach.

Get this... After being certified, I set up a local scuba club, which was University affiliated. After many "run-ins" with people at the University who wanted to govern something that they had no clue about, our club decided to go it on our own. Now, in the meantime, we developed a nice relationship with a local charter boat service which is terrific, and very much caters to us. They're safe, fast, reliable, and affordable, at just $70 a diver. I set up a club website, and the rest is history.

However, get this... Soon after setting up my club, one of our members decided he'd build a LDS... The one that showed me the Raider! Talk about clueless!

Anyway, he one day pulled me aside and asked me to "stop advertising on the web for the club and instead send anyone who contacts me about local diving through his shop instead." Now, I wouldn't have a problem with that, except that he wants to funnel divers through his shop and onto that same charter boat... For $110 a person! He's trying to rip off every person who contacts me about diving $40! And he asked my permission to do it! Here's the funny thing... He didn't even offer me a "cut" or a "free boat ride" or anything! Not that I'd be interested... After all, I've got better ways to make money than ripping off my buddies... But he didn't even offer that!

I mean, you wanna talk about clueless? Amazing...

How did I respond? Well, I blew two grand somewhere else...

 

[ScoobieDooo]

Amazing......MY LDS got p*ssed when he was trying to sell me a low end drysuit for $760 when I bought a higher end Trilam model from Canada (thru the mail, mind you) an saved over $525! His price on the Trilam was $1299. Especially when I asked him "What’s your best price on the drysuits?" and he said "That’s what I sell them for." I said "Well that isn't what I'm gonna be paying." You expect ME to subsidize YOUR monthly drive trips to Rotan, Truk, etc. on MY hard-earned money? See ya, wouldn't wanna BE ya!

Oh yea and his Dive Rite clone of the EXACT Eanx Nitrox computer at LP. $325 vs. $180! Then he says "I'm in an especially good mood today - how about $275?" I said "Any chance you can get in a BETTER mood?" Hahaha. "How about taking a couple of Prozac's?"

As my Chemistry tutor once said to me, "MJ, your just not comprehending this!"