Which sidemount to get?

[SangP]

SM rigs have been around... for longer than BM rigs. Sure for sumps... but the Florida SM rig has still be around for several decades.

It all really depends on how you plan to dive these things.

True, but the commercial stuff is pretty new. The fact that there are only 5 companies that actually produce any thing related to sm shows now much is still possible.

Funny that you mentioned that sm diving has been around for decades cus they still haven't refined the design after all these years .

I suppose also that sm usually means caves where you don't need that much lift unlike open water diving where you need more to float on the surface while waiting for pickup, but I still trying to figure out all the possible configurations.

SangP

 

[hudson]

I see a lot of benefits of the razor/safety harness design over the soft packs in terms of adjustability (you can put the harness at the hips to best handle the weight of the tanks) & attachment points.

The most ideal solution for steel tanks probably does not involve a butt-plate, but rather lowered wing/"hip-strap" and the shortest possible connection to the waist D-rings, metal-on-metal carabiners - that way they may ride at an acceptable height, and you'd have great trim.

That should work for cave, but my understanding is the line-trap potential is much higher in wrecks.

As an aside, friend of mine has tested the Profile with a 30lbs wing and dual steel tanks and didn't find the lift sufficient on the surface. 35-40lbs would probably work better.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Funny that you mentioned that sm diving has been around for decades cus they still haven't refined the design after all these years .

Refined for what? Everyone has there own idea how it should be refined and for what reason and for what goal and application.

Your refinement just isn't coinciding with the money making packaging that others are profiting from

 

[Dive-aholic]

True, but the commercial stuff is pretty new. The fact that there are only 5 companies that actually produce any thing related to sm shows now much is still possible.

Funny that you mentioned that sm diving has been around for decades cus they still haven't refined the design after all these years .

I suppose also that sm usually means caves where you don't need that much lift unlike open water diving where you need more to float on the surface while waiting for pickup, but I still trying to figure out all the possible configurations.

SangP

And a couple of those companies have no idea what they're doing! The problem with mas marketing a commercial SM system is that no one does it the same way. I dive a Nomad, but I've made a bunch of modifications to it to fit the diving I do and still have mods I want to make when I have time. There is no design to refine as far as the masses are concerned.

While there are some caves that are mostly sidemount passage, there are more caves that are sidemount entrances with larger passage once past the restriction where lift is necessary. There are also sidemount passages a few thousand feet back in caves that require sidemount, but to get to those passages you still require lift. There are very few caves where lift is not required at all. In fact, I can count all the ones I know of on one hand.

 

[SangP]

Hiya Rob, SuPrBuGmAn,

Edd did mention that a lot of the decisions to make some of those systems is that they want to mass market it to the general diving community n designed it as such.

Wrong hose lengths, improper lift, odd wing shapes n worse of all poorly designed harnesses.

Regarding lift, what's the max one would need for 4-6 steels and a scooter in fresh water cus there are guys who use 18lbs and on the razor site, the bladder on some of the vids is like a 5lbs camelbak.

The question is why make a sm rig that's neither here nor there...?

Well if no one does it the same way... doesn't it make more sense to design something that would allow for complete customization but have a standard for harness slots. I'm really hoping that they stick with 15cm as it's the width of 3 2" webbing.

SangP

 

[hudson]

worse of all poorly designed harnesses.

Amen. Monkey-see, monkey-do all of the soft-plate ones. Multi-piece harness that's a bitch to replace? Check. Quad shoulder d-rings? Check. Chest strap? Check. Back pad? Check. Shoulder pads? Check. Crappy plastic QR buckles? Check. Ugh.

Regarding lift...someone correct me if I'm wrong: You need about 20lbs to lift two huge (130cuft) steels, if you are going to compensate for running them empty (although 99% of the time you won't). If the stages are AL and you are carrying 2 you'll need 9lbs more to compensate for the weight you need to add to sink those when empty. Add a few more lbs for O2, restriction from the rig etc. Then add ~10lbs for surface comfort. It seems you can hit 40-45lbs easy, although typically you'd need much less than that with smaller steels that are 1/3 full at the end of the dive, and less if you don't need to float on the surface. But you need to account for the worst case scenario when buying equipment.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Most people will need 60lbs minimum for 2 heavy steels and a couple of stages. Scooters should be neutral, and aside from primary tanks, you'll likely not want to carry any more steels, everything else will be aluminum, but the weight still adds up.

 

[SangP]

Amen. Monkey-see, monkey-do all of the soft-plate ones. Multi-piece harness that's a bitch to replace? Check. Quad shoulder d-rings? Check. Chest strap? Check. Back pad? Check. Shoulder pads? Check. Crappy plastic QR buckles? Check. Ugh.

Regarding lift...someone correct me if I'm wrong: You need about 20lbs to lift two huge (130cuft) steels, if you are going to compensate for running them empty (although 99% of the time you won't). If the stages are AL and you are carrying 2 you'll need 9lbs more to compensate for the weight you need to add to sink those when empty. Add a few more lbs for O2, restriction from the rig etc. Then add ~10lbs for surface comfort. It seems you can hit 40-45lbs easy, although typically you'd need much less than that with smaller steels that are 1/3 full at the end of the dive, and less if you don't need to float on the surface. But you need to account for the worst case scenario when buying equipment.

Seriously, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what is needed... !

If a non engineering dude like myself can go spend a couple of hours on a autocad program and figure out something better I'm seriously wondering why the heck can't those dive companies can't make something similar?

I mean all you need are some locking retainers and strap retainers than can lock a strap and you can redesign the entire harness system to allow for replaceable bit & pieces.

Like this for example:

I have 3 of these fellers on my modified transpac design which allows me to replace the shoulder/waist and crotch harness.

My other harness has 5 of them to be completely adjustable.

So if 60 lbs is the min then like bm diving, you need a light 20-30 lbs wing for alu doubles n a 65 lbs for serious heavy tank diving.

SangP

 

[Dive-aholic]

Regarding lift...someone correct me if I'm wrong: You need about 20lbs to lift two huge (130cuft) steels, if you are going to compensate for running them empty (although 99% of the time you won't). If the stages are AL and you are carrying 2 you'll need 9lbs more to compensate for the weight you need to add to sink those when empty. Add a few more lbs for O2, restriction from the rig etc. Then add ~10lbs for surface comfort. It seems you can hit 40-45lbs easy, although typically you'd need much less than that with smaller steels that are 1/3 full at the end of the dive, and less if you don't need to float on the surface. But you need to account for the worst case scenario when buying equipment.

I cannot dive my 108s wet. I don't have enough lift in my 50lb wing, and my wetsuit is an 8/6 and only used for one summer season.

 

[ucfdiver]

I think dive rite rates their wings by theoretical volume in salt water, where as companies like Halcyon and DSS tend to rate them by real world capacity. Maybe I'm wrong, but my nomad wing doesn't have anywhere near the volume that my 55lb Halcyon does, not much more than my 30lb oxycheq actually...