Which has a higher rate of failure a SPG or a transmitter?

[DaleC]

Dale you just don't get it, it's your attitude and statements toward the issue. You talk about not being impressed with how much money someone has spent on a gadget, no one has asked you to be impressed. You talk about wants and needs like your defintion of those things matter more and that those that use it for safety are not properly trained.

There are pieces of gear that I don't use and don't have a desire to own but I'm not gonna say they are not needed. Again to act in that way is a form of being snobbish but those that are so set in that mind set just can't see past it. That is the reason as you state about distinguishing between need and want and that is exactly why you like to term it silly or ridiculous and it's beyond you. Talk about making intelligent decisions, sheeshhh .

Your right this technoolgy has never provided any additional safety to anyone. (sarcasm). No one has said that they forget to check their readouts, but I have said and will stick by that it is easier and check more often when it's on my wrist. I have dived both and I know, and yes I have dived both safetly. Have you dived with an AI wireless wrist computer?

Dale your not wanting to use the gear because you don't see it as needed or don't like the expense is a personal decision and I won't argue with your decisions to dive your gear, or talk down to you about your choices, but why have the attitude about those that choose the other method?

I see the problem is that you think I'm talking down about your choice. I am not. I think I made it abundantly clear that as far as wants go, an AIC is as valid as the choices I make about my wants. I was merely pointing out the difference between a want and a need.

This is a discussion board, where we discuss the topic at hand. Sometimes it happens that some people hold one position and others another. They "argue" in the Greek sense to determine the validity of those positions. While discussing the differences between technologies I think it is valid to explore real benefits vs perceived benefits along with failure rates, especially when the cost ratio is so high. In this case the statement that an AIC makes one safer was proffered. I don't believe that's true so I am debating the statement. I have been challenged numerous times over the years on the statements and choices I make and don't consider them personal attacks.

Here is why I think you are reacting this way to my statements:

"But the big point is talking about what is needed and not and you don't seem to get it, nothing is needed in a hobby. How someone choses to enjoy that hobby as long as it's not unsafe or effecting you is up to that person. There is no need to talk down to them about things that are not needed."

You're thinking is flawed in that respect. Some things are needed, some are not. On a discussion board both are debated. That debate is not "talking down".

 

[beaverdivers]

Just because they are bells and whistles does not mean you can't get in trouble if you don't fully understand how they work and how to use them.

You are absolutely right!

That is exactly why we have the students use them in training, so they learn how to use them and understand how they work.

 

[beaverdivers]

.

This is a discussion board, where we discuss the topic at hand. Sometimes it happens that some people hold one position and others another. They "argue" in the Greek sense to determine the validity of those positions. While discussing the differences between technologies I think it is valid to explore real benefits vs perceived benefits along with failure rates, especially when the cost ratio is so high. In this case the statement that an AIC makes one safer was proffered. I don't believe that's true so I am debating the statement. I have been challenged numerous times over the years on the statements and choices I make and don't consider them personal attacks.

The Air Integrated computer ( AIC ) is safer. I just started a new thread for this discussion.

This thread is addressing failure rates of a SPG & transmitters.

AIC's can use a High Pressure ( HP ) hose
or a transmitter. AIC's become hoseless when getting rid of the HP hose.

Question: Do you use a remote for your TV?

Do you use a garage door opener?

Do you have a cell phone?

Can you even find a phone booth? If you are under the age of 20, do you know what a phone booth is?

Do you use a J valve?

 

[endurodog]

I see the problem is that you think I'm talking down about your choice. I am not. I think I made it abundantly clear that as far as wants go, an AIC is as valid as the choices I make about my wants. I was merely pointing out the difference between a want and a need.


You're thinking is flawed in that respect. Some things are needed, some are not. On a discussion board both are debated. That debate is not "talking down".

Haaa you just keep doing it and keep not getting it. Lets debate the pro's and cons all day long, that is great in a discussion board Dale and I see it across the web, this isn't my only hobby and have been involved in "debates" way back to usnet days.

You continue to talk down even in this post. When you make statements like your not impressed by gear people have when no one brings up wanting to impress anyone, let alone you. Explaining debating when your not debating but talking down to people. The snobbish behavior continues.

Lets debate, lets see if you can debate an issue without falling on belittling as your tactic.

1- Scuba diving is a hobby, as a hobby we don't need to do it. Since we don't "need" to do it none of the gear we use is needed. Now this is a over simplification of a broad concept to point out none of our gear is needed. The point trying to be expressed is saying something is needed or not is a poor argument by someone avoiding the subject and use the "not needed" arguement.

2- Again have you used a wrist mounted AI wireless dive computer or are your remarks being made on beliefs you hold? I have used both.

3- I believe that having a wrist mounted AI wireless computer that you look at your dive information more often than if it was in a hose mounted unit. By looking at it more often I feel that it has some increase in the safety equation by the simple fact of more knowledge is more power. (as a side to this I don't think that divers using hose mounted units are unsafe in the slightest because of having hose mounted units.)

Care to debate or belittle, your choice. I have given 3 debate points with no belittling of you or the other sides beliefs, care to join in or continue the way you have?

 

[beaverdivers]

Which has a higher rate of failure a SPG or a transmitter?

 

[Hatul]

So, if they hover and watch the pretty fishes knowing it is only a 10 minute swim back to the mooring and a 5 minute ascent and let their RBT drop to close to 15 minutes and then start swimming back; how big do their eyes get?

Just because they are bells and whistles does not mean you can't get in trouble if you don't fully understand how they work and how to use them.

The RBT already takes into account the ascent time (at the UWatec optimal rate with all the stops). So the more correct scenario is the RBT drops to close to 10 minutes. But your point is taken. You can still get distracted and run out of air. Most likely for this diver if he missed the 10 minute RBT mark he would either have to swim faster to the mooring line, use up his reserve 500 psi of air, or skip part of the safety stop and/or slow his breathing. The computer also has annoying alarms to help the distracted diver.

But the new diver with only an SPG gauge has a more difficult problem. He looks at his gauge and it says say 1200 psi. He has no idea if this is enough air to make his swim back and make the ascent. It's another element of uncertainty that the Sol diver gets help with. Do you really think he can make this calculation underwater. Most divers cannot work this out on land pre dive.

 

[redacted]

The RBT already takes into account the ascent time (at the UWatec optimal rate with all the stops). So the more correct scenario is the RBT drops to close to 10 minutes. But your point is taken. You can still get distracted and run out of air. Most likely for this diver if he missed the 10 minute RBT mark he would either have to swim faster to the mooring line, use up his reserve 500 psi of air, or skip part of the safety stop and/or slow his breathing. The computer also has annoying alarms to help the distracted diver.

But the new diver with only an SPG gauge has a more difficult problem. He looks at his gauge and it says say 1200 psi. He has no idea if this is enough air to make his swim back and make the ascent. It's another element of uncertainty that the Sol diver gets help with. Do you really think he can make this calculation underwater. Most divers cannot work this out on land pre dive.

I thought that might be the case but. as you said, it does not matter.

Granted, new divers learn very little about gas planning in OW instruction. But the right answer is to let them learn how to do gas planning rather than encouraging them to mindlessly depend on a computer they also do not understand and occasionally miss-read. Recreational gas planning is really not that hard. For recreation planning, I start with the gas supply I will have and then work backwards starting with my climbing back on the boat/shore at the end of the dive. But it does mean you have to have some appreciation for your (and your buddy's) gas usage over the course of the dive. (Or keep the dive real simple and use the very conservative rule of thirds.) Then, during the dive, I check to see that my gas supply is about where I thought it would be at that point in the dive. My nominal plan usually starts with my arriving at a rest stop with 12 to 15 cu ft of gas remaining not including a pony when used.

Clearly divers who can't do simple gas planning or are unwilling or unable to learn may need those extra features offered in more expensive AI computers. For them, it may not be bells and whistles and they will just have to periodically forgo some good UW time to afford the crutch they require.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

... He has no idea if this is enough air to make his swim back and make the ascent. It's another element of uncertainty that the Sol diver gets help with.....

I understand how an AI computer calculated gas requirement to ascend on a standard profile, but could you please educate me on how the SOL has any idea on how much gas it takes to make his swim back (to the anchor line, out of the kelp, etc...)

 

[redacted]

1- Scuba diving is a hobby, as a hobby we don't need to do it. Since we don't "need" to do it none of the gear we use is needed. Now this is a over simplification of a broad concept to point out none of our gear is needed. The point trying to be expressed is saying something is needed or not is a poor argument by someone avoiding the subject and use the "not needed" arguement.

Yes, scuba diving for most of us is a hobby that we do not need to do. BUT once we have decided to do it, there is certain gear that is absolutely required to safely participate. I dive quite safely with an SPG and, sometimes, a simple wrist mounted non-AI computer. My decision to eliminate the AI computer (I did fall for one early on) was made based on my needs and the obvious economics involved.

If you need that wireless AI computer to remain safe, then that is one thing you need to safely participate.

 

[redacted]

I understand how an AI computer calculated gas requirement to ascend on a standard profile, but could you please educate me on how the SOL has any idea on how much gas it takes to make his swim back (to the anchor line, out of the kelp, etc...)

I would imagine that at every point in the dive, it calculates how much gas is required to surface starting at that instant and subtract that as well as your designated reserve from your current supply and tells you how much time you have left if you make no changes to what you are doing before you must start your ascent.. I guess you just have to use your mind if you would like to consider any changes you plan to do in the remainder of the dive.