Which BP/W BC is best for the advanced diver?

[cool_hardware52]

There is absolutely no reason why your weight plates should not be used with doubles. If the bolt length is right they will fit just fine. Even with the weight plates on the back side of the backplate there is still plenty of thread to grab and still have bolts that are within the plane of the cylinders.

MANY divers use AL80s twinned up. These make a great little set. MANY divers use these cylinders with a drysuit. It is a well known fact... and sometimes a real unfortunate one... that this combo needs extra weight. This is the perfect situation to use a V-weight or a extra heavy backplate. Your weight plates are a great solution for this problem.

Stephen, Who designed these goods you or me? It is beyond arrogant for you to tell me what my goods should or should not be used for. Simply amazzing.

You want to be objective, but you have seen and used only a tiny fraction of what we make and sell. How does that qualify you to tell me how my goods should be used?

While it might be true that double 80's need extra ballast we can't be all thing to all people. Because a combination of goods is possible doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Using the weight plates with doubles creates several problems. You need longer bolts, so long infact that they may project above the plane of the tanks. I consider this unacceptable. It leaves the bolts subject to damage when the tanks are not secured to a backplate. If you make the band bolts long enough to accomodate a backplate that's effectively 1/2 thick, and then use these same tanks on a plate without bolt on plates you run the risk of damage to the exposure suit.(sound familar?) It is exactly these problems I seek to avoid by not using the bolt weight plates with doubles.

I'm sure that you know that I know that, too.

Stephen, I suspect you know a number of things. If this was private one to one discussion, there is much I hope I would not need repeat. This is a public forum. I can't assume what others "know". Backplates and wings are a pretty simple device, but my consistent experience has been that people who have not ever used or assembled a BP&W have very little real idea how they work, how they assemble, what combinations are possible, and what the pros and con's of each combo might be.

When I answer a question I always try to keep in mind the other readers who may not know what you do.

Metal to metal. There's no squishing these together any closer. Ya know... sometimes an 1/8" is all ya need. But if ya don't have it, then ya don't have it. It simply won't work. Not to my satisfaction, at least.

It's not metal to metal, not at all. The plate contacts the wing and tanks exactly where the harness weaves through the plate. The metal of the back plate doesn't even touch the wing or tanks. If the harness is "puckered" a bit it can hold the plate off the tanks a bit. In most cases if you lean on the plate you'll get a bit more bolt to project through.

I holed my suit with the longer bolts and I've heard of other guys that holed theirs in the same way. It can happen. I hope that no one else holes their suit. But it would be wise to listen and learn from those that have made the mistake already. There's no reason not to size your bolts appropriately. Not doing it exposes your suit to some added risks.

Agreed. With our Backplates, used the way I recommend, do not require excessively long bolts, 1/4" to 3/8" below the plane of the tanks works fine. This is the way almost all doubles I've ever encountered are set up. Bolts of this lenght are not a risk to exposure suit, when used with our plates, or others.

The first two pics show your plate with the bolt that I use for my other plates.
The second two pics show your plate with the slightly longer bolt.
You'll notice that there is no way to thread a wingnut on the bolt in Pic 1.

Exactly, that's one reason why the weight plates are not recommended for use with doubles.

You'll also notice that if you use a washer ang a split ring that you will only have a few threads grab in the setup shown in pic 2. That's not enough for my liking.

There's plenty of thread if you use the DSS delrin thumbscrews, no need for flat washers and lockwashers, use the right tool for the job. http://www.deepseasupply.com/page13.html

However, if you look at the setups in pics 3 and 4, things work perfectly... whether the weight plates are front or rear mounted, there is plenty of grab for the wingnuts. Yet these bolts are still behind the plane of the cylinders. This shows that these weight plates can be a great way to offset the inherent bouyancy of AL80s. There's no reason in the world not to recommend using your plates for this purpose. No reason except that the bolts MIGHT be a little long if one should choose to slap on another more typically designed plate from another manufacturer.

Let's see here. No reason not to use our goods contrary to our recommendations except that it might lead to the very problem you experienced....... Sounds like a pretty good reason to me.

Suggesting people change bolt lenghts on doubles that they may not even own opens a huge can of worms. Having bolts on doubles that extend beyond the plane of the tanks is a damned PITA. First time you lay the tanks down, or slide them into your pickup bolts down you'll realize why.


Tobin

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Stephen, Who designed these goods you or me? It is beyond arrogant for you to tell me what my goods should or should not be used for. Simply amazzing.

Tobin, I'm not going to take this as an insult. We have been scubaboard friends for too long. I have been a strong supporter of your gear and have pointed countless folks your way. I will continue to do so because I believe that you make some of the finest stuff available while being truely cutting edge at the same time. I respect your ingenuity and I have commented on that quite often. Likewise, I know that your customer satisfaction is beyond compare. (In the years that we have been on the board I can only remember one fella that didn't like your rig... and though I'm sure that he felt that he gave it an honest try, he probably would have had a better experience if someone had lent him a hand with how to set it up and use it.)

I wouldn't presume to tell you how your gear should be used. I am surprised, however, that you don't see this as a great solution for double AL80s. IMHO, it really works fine. I've done it and if I wasn't trading BPs back and forth so often I would continue to use it for that purpose. If one uses your plate with the weight plates with AL80s as a dedicated rig, then there is simply no reason that it won't work perfectly.

You want to be objective, but you have seen and used only a tiny fraction of what we make and sell. How does that qualify you to tell me how my goods should be used?

I have been talking about using your plate with double AL80s. I have experience with that setup so I feel that I can make the statements that I have.

Using the weight plates with doubles creates several problems. You need longer bolts, so long infact that they may project above the plane of the tanks.

Not at all. The first pic that I showed above in post 24 clearly shows that these bolts are well within the plane of the cylinders. I agree, it would be a bad idea to have bolts that project beyond that line. Nevertheless, these bolts are a perfect match for your plate... with or without weight plates... whether they are mounted on the front or the back of the plate.

If you make the band bolts long enough to accomodate a backplate that's effectively 1/2 thick, and then use these same tanks on a plate without bolt on plates you run the risk of damage to the exposure suit.(sound familar?) It is exactly these problems I seek to avoid by not using the bolt weight plates with doubles.

When the plates are mounted on the front of the BP they are essentially out of the picture. In this position they do not add any effective width to the plate in the channel. It is essentially the same as not having them on at all... again when focusing on the issue at hand. Yet, even like this, the bolts that I use for all of my other plates are just too short. The above photos show this clearly.

It's not metal to metal, not at all. The plate contacts the wing and tanks exactly where the harness weaves through the plate. The metal of the back plate doesn't even touch the wing or tanks. If the harness is "puckered" a bit it can hold the plate off the tanks a bit. In most cases if you lean on the plate you'll get a bit more bolt to project through.

Yes... you are right. BPs do rest on the webbing. But there is no give... not with mine or any that I've seen. I just went out and double triple checked with four different plates... a 64th of an inch maybe... naw... not even that.

Agreed. With our Backplates, used the way I recommend, do not require excessively long bolts, 1/4" to 3/8" below the plane of the tanks works fine. This is the way almost all doubles I've ever encountered are set up. Bolts of this lenght are not a risk to exposure suit, when used with our plates, or others.

The hole in my suit proves that it can happen. Someone else aroud here had the same thing happen... Detroit or L_D... I don't remember now. I believe that you are right, however. If one takes the time to get out of their rig the right way it shouldn't happen. Just don't sling your tanks off while you're standing.

There's plenty of thread if you use the DSS delrin thumbscrews, no need for flat washers and lockwashers, use the right tool for the job. http://www.deepseasupply.com/page13.html

Again, you have made my point. Although your thumbwheels are a great idea, I don't need them with my other plates. This is another example of how your gear works best as a system and how some other more typical less innovative plates interchange more easily.

If this is so, then it also makes my other point. If your thumbwheels can grab enough thread to secure the plate when using the shorter bolts that match up well with my other backplates as you suggest, then there is no reason why one couldn't use the weight plates mounted on the front of the BP. A great solution for those AL80s. Hmm... come to think of it, it was you who gave me that idea.

Let's see here. No reason not to use our goods contrary to our recommendations except that it might lead to the very problem you experienced....... Sounds like a pretty good reason to me.

We are in agreement, then.

I won't suggest that people use your weight plates with doubles in the future... even though I believe that they work just dandy for that purpose.

Tobin, I know that you know your stuff... I can't help but believe that we just aren't connecting on this for some reason. But I just don't know where the confusion is. All that I can say is that I believe your gear is so unique that in some situations it... by definition... doesn't mix well with some other more "average" gear. But that quality is one thing that makes your gear stand out above the rest. Similarly, that is why one can only get all of the advantages of your gear if they use it as a system.

BTW, can I still order gear from DSS?

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin, I'm not going to take this as an insult.

I have no interest in insulting anybody. As a designer, manfacturer and sell of these goods I have the benefit of a LOT more data and incite than any single user might have. I've tried many possible combinations, talked to beta testers, seen first hand at least some of the potential problems.

To say " I see no reason why you can't do XX" or even "I did XX and it worked" or "I don't understand why XX is not recommended" are all reasonable, maybe even to expected on a public forum in a free society.

To say "there is no reason" is another matter.

I wouldn't presume to tell you how your gear should be used. I am surprised, however, that you don't see this as a great solution for double AL80s. IMHO, it really works fine. I've done it and if I wasn't trading BPs back and forth so often I would continue to use it for that purpose. If one uses your plate with the weight plates with AL80s as a dedicated rig, then there is simply no reason that it won't work perfectly.

Adding our weight plates to a Backplate on the divers side requires relacing the harness, not exactly something you want to do routinely. Most of my weight plate users like the idea they can be easily removed if they are diving Tropical, or if they switch from single tanks to steel doubles. It is this ease of use that is the main attraction, it's like having a heavy plate and a conventional plate. When our weight plates are mounted as intended, on the tank side of the plate, they can be secured or removed quickly without touching the harness.

People use double 80's with DrySuits, no doubt. I suggest that the prevalence you percieve is maynot be representative. So far you are the only user I know of that has purchased our weight plates specifically for use with doubles, the only one. My experience has been the opposite. People double up 80's as a starter set for use with wetsuits. In most cases when they are ready for a DS they switch to Steels, and either pass off the AL80's, or split them for stage bottle use.

The reality, at least in my world, is that doubles get passed around, rented, loaned etc. Having a set with special bolt lenghts can be probelmatic. There really is no need to do so if one uses our plate within our recommendations. Is it a good idea to suggest people fuss with their band bolts? Do I know whether or not they know how to do it safely when the tanks are full, or even when they are empty? Huge can of worms, and completely unnecessary.

I have been talking about using your plate with double AL80s. I have experience with that setup so I feel that I can make the statements that I have.

Stephen, you have been discussing my plate for use with STA's, other wings, the whole spectrum.

Yes... you are right. BPs do rest on the webbing. But there is no give... not with mine or any that I've seen. I just went out and double triple checked with four different plates... a 64th of an inch maybe... naw... not even that.

Maybe, but that's not been my experience.

The hole in my suit proves that it can happen. Someone else aroud here had the same thing happen... Detroit or L_D... I don't remember now. I believe that you are right, however. If one takes the time to get out of their rig the right way it shouldn't happen. Just don't sling your tanks off while you're standing.

Let's see if I understand exactly what lead to the hole in your suit.

First you fitted longer bolts specificially so you could use DSS goods in a manner I did not anticipate, and do not recommend.

Then you changed to a different backplate without changing the bolt lenght.

Then you punctured your suit when removing your rig without sitting down.

If you use DSS plates within my recommendations there is almost never a need to change bolt lenghts. If you don't lenghten the bolts, you don't poke holes in your suit. Pretty simple really.

Again, you have made my point. Although your thumbwheels are a great idea, I don't need them with my other plates. This is another example of how your gear works best as a system and how some other more typical less innovative plates interchange more easily.

Our thumbwheels have proven very popular. You don't need any other DSS gear to make good use of them. Why do you consider them useful only as part of a "system"? You can easily use them with all your combo's.

Tobin, I know that you know your stuff... I can't help but believe that we just aren't connecting on this for some reason. But I just don't know where the confusion is. All that I can say is that I believe your gear is so unique that in some situations it... by definition... doesn't mix well with some other more "average" gear. But that quality is one thing that makes your gear stand out above the rest. Similarly, that is why one can only get all of the advantages of your gear if they use it as a system.

I know for a fact that our gear will deliver the best performance and the greatest ease of use when used as a system. On this we agree. Not realizing all the benefits of a system is a different thing from "doesn't mix well"

With the possible exception of a few 3rd party single wings not matching exactly the camstrap slot locations in our plates I see no inherent reason to suggest DSS gear is in anyway less compatible or interchangeable than any other.

There is no impediment to using any DSS plate with any singles wing and a STA.

There is no impediment to using any DSS singles wing with any other plate and STA.

There is no impediment to using any DSS plate with any doubles wing and banded doubles.

There is no impediment to using any DSS doubles wing with any plate and banded doubles.

The only possible conflict is some singles wings may not have camstrap slots in the same location as the slots in our plate. This only matters if you want to go "STA-Less"

How you percieve this as "not mixing well" is beyond me.

BTW, can you say with certainty that all other plates match all other wings perfectly?
I doubt it.

BTW, can I still order gear from DSS?

Sure.


Tobin

 

[GreenDiverDown]

I have no interest in insulting anybody.

Well... your comment did invoke a ten count and a deep breath...

Tobin, I could continue to go tit for tat on each comment that you have made and hold my own very well. It is tempting to continue that approach but I'm going to pass. But I will say a few more things on this subject.

I'll start with an apology. If I put you in an awkward position, then I'm sorry. I didn't mean to suggest that I blame your plate for the hole in my suit. I don't... not at all. In fact, your plate has nothing to do with that issue. The standard bolts that I get from Highland are 5". This is the same length as the all-thread that I showed in post 24. It is my belief that this length adds a risk to holing my suit. I realize that this is controversial and that many will disagree. Nevertheless, I prefer to cut my bolts down so that there isn't so much exposed bolt. I believe that my experience with the tear in my suit justifies this action. Still, I can see how others might find it needless, compulsive, or anal. OTOH, I think that it might just be lazy not to do it. There's no reason not to and it just might save your suit one day.

On the issue of using your plates with double Al80s, I believe that DSS has missed the boat. Double 80s are the preferred cylinders in some circles for certain applications and are quite popular with many divers. Their use is not limited to a starter set. As you know, they are floaty and require added weight. Also, as you are aware, this is most often accomplished by adding a V-weight. But even with a V-weight there are divers who can make good use of an extra-heavy plate in addition to the standard V-weight. I'm a perfect example of one who can use both. Because my undergarments are sooo buoyant, I need alot of weight. I still keep a little on my belt but I like to put as much as I can 'up top', so to speak.

I have several FredT plates that I use just for that purpose... and they are THICK plates. In fact, FredT is one of the few people marketing heavy plates for this use. DSS would be would be wise to get on board. There simply is no reason why your plate can't be used for that purpose. You haven't given me a single one...

... One doesn't need bolts that project past the plane of the cylinders to use your BP with the added weight plates mounted on the back. In fact, a standard 5" Highland bolt will work with your plate just fine... almost like it was custom sized just for that purpose.

You, yourself stated that you set up your rigs like the diagram on diverite express... so that the bolts do not extend beyond the plane of the cylinders. You also stated that 1/2 to 1 inch of bolt projecting past the wingnut is acceptable. This is pretty standard and is accepted by most folks. If you believe this to be true, then there is no reason to not recommend your weight plates for this purpose. Consumers need not use extra-long bolts that extend past the plane of the cylinders, they can keep the weight plates mounted on the back for quick and easy removal, and should they use a different plate or lend out there doubles to a friend with a different plate then there should be no risk to their exposure suit from a bolt that is too long.

The pic below shows this to be true...
... there's your plate with back-mounted weight plates on an appropriately sized bolt... as per your requirements that I described above. It simply works. It fits great.

Where we differ is in the bolt length issue. As I said above... I prefer to cut my bolts down for use with other plates so that the tip is protected somewhat by the wing nut. But doing so prevents using your plate with these same bolts.

If I were to set up a set of doubles for someone else with the intension of using your BP and weight plates, I would leave the bolts an 1/8" or 1/4" shy of the cylinder plane and I would tell them that they are sized for their DSS BP and weightplates. I would suggest that they only use your plate with this set but should they choose to use a different plate or lend it out to a bud that, even though these bolts are set up in the recommended way, they should check to be sure that they are comfortable with how they sit on the other plate. In fact, I just set one up for a friend and I did just that. He wasn't concerned about it in the least.

 

[cool_hardware52]

On the issue of using your plates with double Al80s, I believe that DSS has missed the boat.

Maybe, maybe not. As I've said before I can't be all things to all people. Fred makes nice plates, I've recommended them myself. If you need a dedicated heavy weight plate Fred's at the top of my list.

Double 80s are the preferred cylinders in some circles for certain applications and are quite popular with many divers.

I've never denied this. Let me stipulate specifically that people do use double 80's. Let me also reiterate that to the best of my knowledge you are the only person who has purchased our weight plates for use with doubles. In other words the worlds not beating a path to my door demanding to do exactly what you have with my goods.

In my experience doubled 80's are often the choice for folks new to doubles. For a couple reasons; they are inexpensive, and they can be used with a wetsuit. The whole point of using Al80's with a wetsuit is to have ditchable weight to offset the compression of the wetsuit. Bolt on weight plates are not ditchable.

Their use is not limited to a starter set. As you know, they are floaty and require added weight. Also, as you are aware, this is most often accomplished by adding a V-weight. But even with a V-weight there are divers who can make good use of an extra-heavy plate in addition to the standard V-weight. I'm a perfect example of one who can use both. Because my undergarments are sooo buoyant, I need alot of weight. I still keep a little on my belt but I like to put as much as I can 'up top', so to speak.

Might I suggest a nice set of steel doubles?

I have several FredT plates that I use just for that purpose... and they are THICK plates. In fact, FredT is one of the few people marketing heavy plates for this use. DSS would be would be wise to get on board. There simply is no reason why your plate can't be used for that purpose. You haven't given me a single one...

I given you at least two; many people don't "dedicate" either their doubles (borrow, rent etc.) or their backplate. If you bolt on our weights on the tank side of the plate you might need special bolts. Special bolts raise all the issues of suit damage, improper adjustment of bands, hazards of high pressure gas etc. If you bolt on the weight plates on the divers side of the plate you need to relace the harness to remove the plates.

If you want to realize the benefits of our bolt on weight plates, i.e. quick and easy conversion of your plate from 5 lbs to 13 lbs and back, the weights belong on the tank side of the plate.

You, yourself stated that you set up your rigs like the diagram on diverite express... so that the bolts do not extend beyond the plane of the cylinders. You also stated that 1/2 to 1 inch of bolt projecting past the wingnut is acceptable.

When doubles are set up per the diverite express recommendations it is very typical to see 1/2 to 1 inch of bolt projecting beyond the wing nut when using conventional plates. This simply is the norm. I've never said whether this acceptable or not. When using a DSS plate on tanks set up this way much less bolt will project, but we need much less because of the design of our Delrin thumbwheel.

This is pretty standard and is accepted by most folks. If you believe this to be true, then there is no reason to not recommend your weight plates for this purpose. Consumers need not use extra-long bolts that extend past the plane of the cylinders, they can keep the weight plates mounted on the back for quick and easy removal, and should they use a different plate or lend out there doubles to a friend with a different plate then there should be no risk to their exposure suit from a bolt that is too long.

There is no standard for how doubles are set up. Bolt lenghts vary quite a bit. Some use all thread of various lenghts. That's why you see ~1/2 to 1" projecting through the wing nuts. Your lucky if the bolts are close to being on 11" centers. (that's why our plates have elongated slots)

What I do know is that it is very uncommon to find a set of doubles with bolts too short to fit our backplate even though it has a shallow bend and shallow center channel. I think I've encountered one set. It is very common to find that there is just enough bolt lenght to allow successful use of our delrin thumbwheels, in other words the bolts stick through the plate by about 5/16". What happens when you add 3/8" of thickness to the plate by bolting on the weight plates? Nothing good.

The pic below shows this to be true...
... there's your plate with back-mounted weight plates on an appropriately sized bolt... as per your requirements that I described above. It simply works. It fits great.

Where we differ is in the bolt length issue. As I said above... I prefer to cut my bolts down for use with other plates so that the tip is protected somewhat by the wing nut. But doing so prevents using your plate with these same bolts.

If I were to set up a set of doubles for someone else with the intension of using your BP and weight plates, I would leave the bolts an 1/8" or 1/4" shy of the cylinder plane and I would tell them that they are sized for their DSS BP and weightplates. I would suggest that they only use your plate with this set but should they choose to use a different plate or lend it out to a bud that, even though these bolts are set up in the recommended way, they should check to be sure that they are comfortable with how they sit on the other plate. In fact, I just set one up for a friend and I did just that. He wasn't concerned about it in the least.

Now I'm confused. It would appear that your current position is:

Any DSS plate can be used with pretty much any 3rd party single wing and STA
Any DSS single wing can be used with pretty much any 3rd party plate and STA
Any DSS plate can be used with any 3rd party Doubles wing.
Any DSS doubles wing can be used with any 3rd party plate.
DSS weight plates can be used with doubles without requiring special bolts allowing these tanks to be used with other plates without modification.

If this is the case how do you reconcile your previous statements that DSS needs to be used as a system, and does not play well with others?

To be clear I do not recommend the use of our bolt on weights with doubles.


Tobin

 

[alpaj]

I would like to make a synopsis of the above for anyone who skipped to the end. SOME people seem incapable of picking a proper bolt length. To most that is fairly simple. Adding on a couple of washers before threading the bolt through the bands would solve every problem that Stephen Ash has tried to create. To most of us a couple of washers are fairly cheap. Most of us also don't have 800 dollars worth of plates and not a few cents for a couple of washers.

To whoever posted the fact that there are no metal gromets on the LCD wings. If anything that would put less stress on the fabric. With grommets the fabric isn't nearly as well supported as sandwitching it between an STA or tank (depending (yes you can use both)) because there is much more surface area of the fabric supporting it.

 

[alpaj]

P.S. Tobin you haven't told me if you are sending me that wing

I will try and post some pictures of the rig. I will do the impossible!!!

Non-DSS Plate (From a buddy)
Non-DSS Full length STA
Non-DSS Harness

AND a beauty of an LCD 40 DSS wing!!!

She will be the prettiest rig on the block. And comptible with any other wing, harness, plate, tank, STA...

You'll have to wait a while for pics.

 

[cool_hardware52]

P.S. Tobin you haven't told me if you are sending me that wing

I will try and post some pictures of the rig. I will do the impossible!!!

Non-DSS Plate (From a buddy)
Non-DSS Full length STA
Non-DSS Harness

AND a beauty of an LCD 40 DSS wing!!!

She will be the prettiest rig on the block. And comptible with any other wing, harness, plate, tank, STA...

You'll have to wait a while for pics.

Should leave here monday. Thanks!


Tobin

 

[GreenDiverDown]

In other words the worlds not beating a path to my door demanding to do exactly what you have with my goods.

That's a shame!

Might I suggest a nice set of steel doubles?

Got a set... don't need another. But thanks.

If you bolt on our weights on the tank side of the plate you might need special bolts. Special bolts raise all the issues of suit damage, improper adjustment of bands, hazards of high pressure gas etc. If you bolt on the weight plates on the divers side of the plate you need to relace the harness to remove the plates.

I'll have to call BS on this one. First of all you don't need "special bolts" to use your plate as I have described. The bolts that come with Highland bands work perfectly as is when using your plate. If for some reason one chooses another brand of bands and they come with bolts that are too short, then cut your own all-thread. There are no "special bolts". Suit damage? Yah... if you use bolts that are too long. Improper band adjustments and hazards of high pressure gas... these are concerns any time you assemble doubles but how long you leave you bolt has nada to do with these things.

There is no standard for how doubles are set up. Bolt lenghts vary quite a bit.

There is a right way and many wrong ways to set up doubles... believe me... I've seen 'em! But I agree... bolt lengths do vary. The reason they vary are several and personal choice is one acceptable reason.

Now I'm confused. It would appear that your current position is:...

I'm sorry that you are confused but my position has not changed in the least.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Tobin, I find our discussion quite unsettling... mainly because I have always been one of your biggest supporters and think quite highly of you and your product.

While I personally have encountered some difficulties blending your plate with some of my gear, I'm sure that there are many others who have done so quite successfully. I reviewed my statements above and I have made 12 comments reqarding mixing your gear with other parts. In all but one I was careful to use words like, "I prefer", "IMHO", "personally", and "might". I apologize for the one slip, as mild as it was.

I'd like to leave it like this... my feelings on this issue are simply that... my feelings.

On the issue of doubles, I don't understand your position and I'll continue to wonder why you don't recognize the utility of your gear with respect to this application. But, hey, I never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer.

I've tried to extend the olive branch in several previous posts but perhaps I was too subtle. I don't how many more ways that I can compliment your gear and you personally. I think that you have really upped the bar in terms of dive gear. Keep up the good work.

Stephen