Which BP/W BC is best for the advanced diver?

[GreenDiverDown]

Why, other than the ability to switch from singles to doubles without unlacing the cambands?



No argument here. If you want all the benefits you need all the pieces.



There are no "Standards" for BackPlates, none period. Who would set them? The only "default standard" is the inclusion of at least one set of holes in the center spine of the plate for mounting banded manifolded doubles.

It is wrong to leave the impression that DSS's wings or plates are "nonstandard" or incompatible with other makes of wings, plates etc. This is simply untrue.

There is nothing to prevent use of a DSS plate with virtually any singles wing and a STA. Even in the unlikely event the tank stabilizer interfers with some STA it can be removed (un-sewn) Many third party singles wings will also line up with DSS plate slots, allowing "STA-Less" use, some may not.

There is nothing preventing the use of a DSS singles wing with any plate and a STA. Many 3rd party plates may also line up with the slots in a DSS wing, some may not.

There is nothing to keep someone from using a DSS plate with virtually any doubles wing.

There is nothing to prevent the use of a DDS Doubles wing with virtually any plate.

In short for doubles it's mix and match to your hearts content. For singles with a bolt on STA it's mix and match to your hearts content.

Only when you want to avoid using an ADAPTER i.e. a STA is there a possibility of a compatiblity issue, and even then many 3rd party combos will work.


Regards,


Tobin

Tobin, we've had this discussion before. Some of us just like to use STAs. Speaking for myself, an STA is an integral part of my rig. I choose to use them for very specific reasons. Besides, none of the disadvantages that you listed apply to me. In fact, I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't want to use one.

I never stated that there is a Backplate Standard. Of course, there isn't. However, there are many backplates out there that are suprisingly very similar in channel depth and bend angles and overall length and width. Though there is no "Standard", these plates ARE more standard. If you prefer, I'll call them basic or usual whereas your plate is unique and "innovative". Your plate is significantly different... that's a good thing, no? It is flatter and the channel is shallower than most other plates. You designed it that way for a reason.

Here's an example...

I use AL and SS Halcyon plates, 3 different thickness/weight SS FredT plates and occasionally an OMS plate. I pick the plate depending on my weight requirement.They are all interchangable on my doubles. However,your plate is not... at least not without changing some things that would prevent my other plates form working.

Because your plate is markedly flatter and shallower, when placed on my doubles, the bolts are too short. Even with the weight plates flipped I don't have enough exposed thread. OTOH, if I put longer bolts on, then they are too long if I use any of my other plates. In addition to this, because your plate is flatter and shallower, when mounted on my doubles, my V-weight flops around. The other plates all wedge that weight down just right. Hence, your plate...as fantastic as it is... doesn't fit into some of my gear configs as well as my other plates. In this particular situation I prefer to stick with my other plates.

Now... As I've said before... your plate is simply fantastic, beyond comparison, and perhaps the best plate available today. I never get to use it because everyone at my shop loves it. Someone always has it on. It is hardly ever dry. Saying this also means that your plate does fit with other gear. No one at my shop has your wings. They use OMS, or Agir, or the new Apeks stuff. They also all use STAs. Your plate does just fine with all of that. But they are using your plate and unlike me they don't have a whole stable of gear that they frequently mix and match.

Yes... if you are building a rig with different pieces then DSS gear will work. But if you already have rig(s) built around other parts... and you plan to continue to interchange different pieces, then the DSS gear MIGHT not fit into that setup as well as some other choices. My example above, better demonstrates what I'm trying to say.

I've included some pics... the first two show that my bolts are too short with your plate. The third shows that with a longer bolt sized to fit your plate, they are too long to use with my other plates.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I never stated that there is a Backplate Standard. Of course, there isn't.

When your refer to a standard, or something being standard or non stantard you imply a standard exists.

Because your plate is markedly flatter and shallower, when placed on my doubles, the bolts are too short. Even with the weight plates flipped I don't have enough exposed thread. OTOH, if I put longer bolts on, then they are too long if I use any of my other plates.

You might think so, but you are fundamentally wrong. Double tanks are essentially seperated from the divers back by the thickness of the plate. The doubles contact the plate at or near the outside edge. This is also right where the plate contacts the diver. Plate angle and or depth of the center channel cannot move the tanks closer to or further away from the divers back. If you are not moving the tanks relative to your back how would bolts that are long enongh to work with a DSS plate be too long with some other plate?
The simple fact is the bolts will project through a deeply bend plate further than a shallow plate, but they will be no closer to your exposure suit with either plate.

I set up all my doubles so the tip of the band bolts is just below a straight edge placed across the tanks as shown in this link http://www.diveriteexpress.com/library/doubles.shtml

This allows sufficient bolt lenght to easily secure a DSS plate using a Delrin thumbwheel or conventional wing nut. Even at this lenght neither bolt comes even close to a divers exposure suit.

Now... As I've said before... your plate is simply fantastic, beyond comparison, and perhaps the best plate available today. I never get to use it because everyone at my shop loves it. Someone always has it on. It is hardly ever dry. Saying this also means that your plate does fit with other gear. No one at my shop has your wings.

Too bad, no wonder everybodies using STA's. They are only realizing some of the benefits....

They use OMS, or Agir, or the new Apeks stuff. They also all use STAs. Your plate does just fine with all of that. But they are using your plate and unlike me they don't have a whole stable of gear that they frequently mix and match. Yes... if you are building a rig with different pieces then DSS gear will work. But if you already have rig(s) built around other parts... and you plan to continue to interchange different pieces, then the DSS gear MIGHT not fit into that setup as well as some other choices. My example above, better demonstrates what I'm trying to say.

Your point here fails me. You cite examples of people routinely mixing and matching DSS gear with a wide range of others without a problem. You suggest that somebody starting out fresh could build up what they want, but then raise a theoretical objection without example...

I've included some pics... the first two show that my bolts are too short with your plate. The third shows that with a longer bolt sized to fit your plate, they are too long to use with my other plates.

How do you define "too long"? Apparently you successfully used a DSS plate with doubles. Were the band bolts any problem for the diver? Did they rip two holes in the exposure suit? Again, if you leave the bolts alone and simply change plates the tip of the bolts cannot get any closer to the diver, all you will see is more thread projecting through the plate. This might look scary, to the un informed, but in practice it's not a problem.

I did quite a bit of research into exactly this matter before I selected the profile on my plates. Our goal was to have the flattest plate with the shallowest center channel that would still accomodate bolted manifolded doubles. The results speak for themselves.


Tobin

 

[GreenDiverDown]

When your refer to a standard, or something being standard or non stantard you imply a standard exists.

I didn't mean to suggest that at all. I only meant that some plates are more alike than others. Perhaps I should have used than word "typical" or "usual". Your plate stands out from the crowd. It is significantly different than the others. It is much flatter and has a much shallower channel than most other plates.

Though I respect your opinion as a designer and manufacturer, I have had years of experience mixing and matching a boat-load of gear from many different manufacturers and it is simply my personal preference not to use your plate with the gear from my scuba closet. Because of its unique design it just doesn't work well with my STAs and twins that have bolt lengths that are set up for all my other plates.

That doesn't mean I don't like your offerings. In fact, I have stated many times on this board that I believe your plate is probably the best plate made today. In fact, I have "turned on" MANY members to your gear and I still recommend it when I believe that it is the best choice for their particular situation. Still, there are times when I think another line of gear might be better for someone's individual needs. I try to be objective.

I'm sure there will come a day when I get some more of your gear... but I'll use it as a DSS "system" and I won't mix it in with my other stuff.

You might think so, but you are fundamentally wrong. Double tanks are essentially seperated from the divers back by the thickness of the plate. The doubles contact the plate at or near the outside edge. This is also right where the plate contacts the diver. Plate angle and or depth of the center channel cannot move the tanks closer to or further away from the divers back. If you are not moving the tanks relative to your back how would bolts that are long enongh to work with a DSS plate be too long with some other plate?
The simple fact is the bolts will project through a deeply bend plate further than a shallow plate, but they will be no closer to your exposure suit with either plate.

I am not "fundamentally wrong". I understand what you are saying about the space between a diver's back and his cylinders. I have pointed this out at least one one other previous occasion.

Here... http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1376147&postcount=8
and here... http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1376165&postcount=9

Nevertheless, it is a fact that more bolt is exposed and it is more likely that that this will hole a suit. Take a look at the pics below.

I set up all my doubles so the tip of the band bolts is just below a straight edge placed across the tanks as shown in this link http://www.diveriteexpress.com/library/doubles.shtml

This allows sufficient bolt lenght to easily secure a DSS plate using a Delrin thumbwheel or conventional wing nut. Even at this lenght neither bolt comes even close to a divers exposure suit.

That's how I do it, too. Pic 1 shows how I set up my bolt length with your plate. Pic 2 shows a FredT plate with those same bolts. Pic 3 shows the hole in my drysuit!

Granted, the tip of the bolt is no closer to my back whether I'm using your plate or Fred's. But there is much more bolt exposed on Fred's plate. This nailed my suit when I slung my rig down... not when it was on my back. It wouldn't have happened if I had sat down to remove my gear, but sometimes I don't do that.

Pic 4 shows the two different sizes of bolts. I need the longer bolt to be able to use your plate. The shorter bolts don't catch my drysuit when I slide my rig off. Pic 5 shows a FredT plate with the shorter bolts. All my other plates line up similarly. Fact is... if I'm gonna be using all my different plates on this set of doubles, I feel safer with the shorter bolts. Fact is... with the shorter bolts, I don't have enough thread to use your plate.

Also...and just as important to me... when I use your plate on this setup, my V-weight flops around. All of my other plates lock down my V-weight just right. I suppose that shouldn't be a big deal but it's just another thing I would have to tweak. To keep it from flopping I would have to lock it down with washers and nuts between the weight and the plate. I don't have to do that with my other plates. And they're great plates... so why bother with the other thing.

Too bad, no wonder everybodies using STA's. They are only realizing some of the benefits....

I agree!

You know I tried very hard to get my shop to pick up your line. I even gave 'em my plate much like a dealer gives up free dope to feed his junkies' addiction. Unfortunately, even though they all love the plate, they haven't picked up your line.

Your point here fails me. You cite examples of people routinely mixing and matching DSS gear with a wide range of others without a problem. You suggest that somebody starting out fresh could build up what they want, but then raise a theoretical objection without example...

You missed my point. All these folks individually are using their one rig. They are not 'individually' using different combinations of gear. Once set up your plate is fine. It is simply a matter of using the right sized bolts. But grap another plate or a different STA and bolt length changes are required... at least IMHO.

If I am going to be swapping out a FredT with a Halcyon with an OMS with an Agir with a DSS... I'm gonna take the DSS out of the line up. It's a great plate... probably the best... but I don't want to have to mess around with my bolt lengths and V-weight.

How do you define "too long"? Apparently you successfully used a DSS plate with doubles. Were the band bolts any problem for the diver? Did they rip two holes in the exposure suit? Again, if you leave the bolts alone and simply change plates the tip of the bolts cannot get any closer to the diver, all you will see is more thread projecting through the plate. This might look scary, to the un informed, but in practice it's not a problem.

Well... see my real-world experience described in detail and shown in the above photos. The bolt length in Pic 2 "looks scary". Because I was "informed", I didn't worry about it. But after I became 'experienced'... and after I patched my drysuit... I put my shorter bolts back in. I never holed my suit before I put the longer bolts in... and I haven't holed my suit since I took the long ones out.

 

[daniel f aleman]

Stephen,

Are you a pack-rat? Can't give it up?

I finally got rid of all my Frankenstein stuff and bought DSS; two rigs, one for one-tank diving, and the other for two-tank diving. DSS makes by far and away the best designed BP/W. I'm up and in the water in minutes...

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Stephen,

Are you a pack-rat? can't give it up?

I finally got rid of all my Frankenstein stuff and bought DSS; two rigs, one each for one tank, and the other for two tanks. It's by far and away the best designed BP/W. I'm up and in the water in minutes...

Yah... I know you're right. I have a hard time selling stuff off.

Don't misunderstand. I think Tobin's setup is KILLER. I just personally believe that one should use his entire system. That's the best way to glean all of the advantages that his design offers. I also believe that if you already have a bunch of stuff and if you're lookin' to add a piece then there might be better choices than DSS. At least, one would be wise to consider that because Tobin's stuff is so unique that it just MIGHT not fit with your other stuff without having to do some mods. The bolt length thing is one example. Having to remove the wing stabilizer with certain STAs might be another.

Besides... if we are going to praise DSS for its uniqueness and innovation why would we want to claim that it is just like all the other stuff.

Can't have the cake and eat it too, ya know.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I didn't mean to suggest that at all. I only meant that some plates are more alike than others. Perhaps I should have used than word "typical" or "usual". Your plate stands out from the crowd. It is significantly different than the others. It is much flatter and has a much shallower channel than most other plates.

This is exactly how our plate and "STA-Less" tank mount puts single tanks as much as 2" closer to the divers back.

Though I respect your opinion as a designer and manufacturer, I have had years of experience mixing and matching a boat-load of gear from many different manufacturers and it is simply my personal preference not to use your plate with the gear from my scuba closet. Because of its unique design it just doesn't work well with my STAs and twins that have bolt lengths that are set up for all my other plates.

What about a DSS plate keeps you from using it with a bolt on STA?

Also...and just as important to me... when I use your plate on this setup, my V-weight flops around.

Easy solved with a second nut run down the band bolt, a 25 cent solution that takes 20 seconds to install. I want my plate to clamp my wing to the plate. I want the tanks to contact the plate. I don't ever want the center channel of the plate to "Bottom out" on either the tank bands, or a V weight. If it does it leaves the wing free to slide around a bit, and moves the tanks away from the divers back.

You missed my point. All these folks individually are using their one rig. They are not 'individually' using different combinations of gear. Once set up your plate is fine. It is simply a matter of using the right sized bolts. But grap another plate or a different STA and bolt length changes are required... at least IMHO.

Your Point still eludes me. You previously stated everybody was using a STAs. How does a different plate require different STA bolts?


Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

Stephen,

Some of your photos are potentially confusing. I have never intended our bolt on weight plates to be used on double tank rigs. You are the only one who has done so to the best of my knowledge. Using the bolt on weights with doubles will change the lenght of bolt required, and is not recommended.

While there can be applications for extra weight on doubles backplates, there is a far greater need for extra weight on single rigs. It's far more common for doubles divers to need a lighter plate, not a heavier one. When you purchased your DSS plate and weights I had no idea you planned to use them with doubles.

Our bolt on weights have no impact on how a single tank mounts to our plate, with or with out a STA.

In your second photo you can see that your "short bolts" are almost long enough, all you need is enough to "fill" the nut. Once you have the all the threads of the nut engaged, more lenght gains you nothing. There is no need to have 1/2-5/8" of the bolt projecting beyond the wing nut. I bet if I pushed down on the rig in the photo I could get one of my delrin thumbscrews to engage fully. If not all you would need is another 1/8" or so.

Not everybody I dive with uses a DSS plate, (I'm working on, I'm working on it!eyebrow) People use my tanks, their own tanks, rental doubles etc. We've never had a problem with torn suits. Most doubles are set up so you do have 1/2 - 1" of bolt projecting beyond the metal wing nut when using a steeply bent plate. This just what happens when you follow guidelines like the ones at DiveRiteExpress. This is usually more than enough to allow securing a DSS plate with our Delrin thumbscrews, no special bolts, no adjusting, just drop on the wing, drop on the plate and tighten the delrin thumbscrews.

Tobin

 

[GreenDiverDown]

This is exactly how our plate and "STA-Less" tank mount puts single tanks as much as 2" closer to the divers back.

I'm pretty sure that you know that I know that. I been telling folks about the advantages of your plate for quite some time now.

What about a DSS plate keeps you from using it with a bolt on STA?

Absolutely nothing.

Easy solved with a second nut run down the band bolt, a 25 cent solution that takes 20 seconds to install. I want my plate to clamp my wing to the plate. I want the tanks to contact the plate. I don't ever want the center channel of the plate to "Bottom out" on either the tank bands, or a V weight. If it does it leaves the wing free to slide around a bit, and moves the tanks away from the divers back.

I notched out my V-weight so that my plates snug up perfectly. Your plate, however, doesn't. It's really no big deal. I just use my other plates.

Your Point still eludes me. You previously stated everybody was using a STAs. How does a different plate require different STA bolts?

Again... it is a bolt length issue and it's not a big deal. I just don't know how to make it more clear.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Again... it is a bolt length issue and it's not a big deal. I just don't know how to make it more clear.

Stephen,

You have repeatedly stated that different plates would require different lenght bolts when using a STA.

The bolts on a STA need only be long enough to reach through the STA, through the wing grommets and through the thickness of center channel of a backplate.

This lenght is exactly the same regardless of the profile of the plate, i.e. the steepest deepest plate ever made and a "dead flat" plate would need the same lenght bolt to secure a STA.

What am I missing? How woul different plates require different STA bolts?


Tobin

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Stephen,

Some of your photos are potentially confusing. I have never intended our bolt on weight plates to be used on double tank rigs. You are the only one who has done so to the best of my knowledge. Using the bolt on weights with doubles will change the lenght of bolt required, and is not recommended.

While there can be applications for extra weight on doubles backplates, there is a far greater need for extra weight on single rigs. It's far more common for doubles divers to need a lighter plate, not a heavier one. When you purchased your DSS plate and weights I had no idea you planned to use them with doubles.

There is absolutely no reason why your weight plates should not be used with doubles. If the bolt length is right they will fit just fine. Even with the weight plates on the back side of the backplate there is still plenty of thread to grab and still have bolts that are within the plane of the cylinders.

MANY divers use AL80s twinned up. These make a great little set. MANY divers use these cylinders with a drysuit. It is a well known fact... and sometimes a real unfortunate one... that this combo needs extra weight. This is the perfect situation to use a V-weight or a extra heavy backplate. Your weight plates are a great solution for this problem.

Our bolt on weights have no impact on how a single tank mounts to our plate, with or with out a STA.

I'm sure that you know that I know that, too.

In your second photo you can see that your "short bolts" are almost long enough, all you need is enough to "fill" the nut. Once you have the all the threads of the nut engaged, more lenght gains you nothing. There is no need to have 1/2-5/8" of the bolt projecting beyond the wing nut. I bet if I pushed down on the rig in the photo I could get one of my delrin thumbscrews to engage fully. If not all you would need is another 1/8" or so.

Metal to metal. There's no squishing these together any closer. Ya know... sometimes an 1/8" is all ya need. But if ya don't have it, then ya don't have it. It simply won't work. Not to my satisfaction, at least.

Not everybody I dive with uses a DSS plate, (I'm working on, I'm working on it!eyebrow) People use my tanks, their own tanks, rental doubles etc. We've never had a problem with torn suits. Most doubles are set up so you do have 1/2 - 1" of bolt projecting beyond the metal wing nut when using a steeply bent plate. This just what happens when you follow guidelines like the ones at DiveRiteExpress. This is usually more than enough to allow securing a DSS plate with our Delrin thumbscrews, no special bolts, no adjusting, just drop on the wing, drop on the plate and tighten the delrin thumbscrews.

I holed my suit with the longer bolts and I've heard of other guys that holed theirs in the same way. It can happen. I hope that no one else holes their suit. But it would be wise to listen and learn from those that have made the mistake already. There's no reason not to size your bolts appropriately. Not doing it exposes your suit to some added risks.

The first two pics show your plate with the bolt that I use for my other plates.
The second two pics show your plate with the slightly longer bolt.
You'll notice that there is no way to thread a wingnut on the bolt in Pic 1. You'll also notice that if you use a washer ang a split ring that you will only have a few threads grab in the setup shown in pic 2. That's not enough for my liking.

However, if you look at the setups in pics 3 and 4, things work perfectly... whether the weight plates are front or rear mounted, there is plenty of grab for the wingnuts. Yet these bolts are still behind the plane of the cylinders. This shows that these weight plates can be a great way to offset the inherent bouyancy of AL80s. There's no reason in the world not to recommend using your plates for this purpose. No reason except that the bolts MIGHT be a little long if one should choose to slap on another more typically designed plate from another manufacturer.

I've said all that I can say on this Tobin. It's really just a personal preference of mine.