Which BP/W BC is best for the advanced diver?

[MSilvia]

No Tobin... he hasn't. It looked good in the water, and it seemed to work well. I only say I'm not crazy about it ("it" being an LCD30) for three reasons. First, because I like having an STA, and it seemed like the stabilizers would make it difficult to use the wing with one. Second, because the bolt-through holes seemed a little flimsy, and like they were tacked on as an afterthought, as opposed to being a secure and integral part of the wing fabric like they are on your LCD50 (which I just checked out for the first time... it looks like a nice wing!). Third, I like having multiple positioning holes for bolt-through, again like the LCD50.

It just seems like the LCD singles wings you have are designed to be used without a STA (rather than to be used with or without one). That's great if you don't want to use one, but as someone who prefers using an STA, I can't see buying a wing that seems like it isn't really intended to be used that way. My plate doesn't have cam band slots, and I don't care to have them, so I feel like the LCD singles wings are a poor choice for me. At the same time, I can understand why others would be enthusiastic about them.

Personally, I like that I can switch between singles and doubles by turning a couple of screws and swapping out which wing is in the sandwich. I have no interest in threading and unthreading cam bands whenever I want to reconfigure my rig.

 

[cool_hardware52]

No Tobin... he hasn't. It looked good in the water, and it seemed to work well. I only say I'm not crazy about it ("it" being an LCD30) for three reasons. First, because I like having an STA, and it seemed like the stabilizers would make it difficult to use the wing with one.

Most "lightweight" STA's can be easily used over the tank Stabilizer that's part of our single wings. Because the STA raises the tank away from plate the center section of the plate the stabilizer does not interfer. Wide channel type weighted STA might interfer.

Second, because the bolt-through holes seemed a little flimsy, and like they were tacked on as an afterthought, as opposed to being a secure and integral part of the wing fabric like they are on your LCD50

Once the cambands are tightened the wing is trapped against the plate by the tank. The only purpose of the grommet holes is to align the wing on the plate. I would never recommend hoisting any rig by the wing alone.

(which I just checked out for the first time... it looks like a nice wing!). Third, I like having multiple positioning holes for bolt-through, again like the LCD50.

All of our plates have pairs of holes for trim adjustments, but if your are using a DSS single wing on a plate with a single set of holes you can still adjust trim by tank position, or simply ignore the holes altogether and let the tank and cambands locate the wing. This last approach can require a little fiddling, as the wing will slide around a bit.

It just seems like the LCD singles wings you have are designed to be used without a STA (rather than to be used with or without one). That's great if you don't want to use one, but as someone who prefers using an STA, I can't see ever buying a wing that seems like it isn't really intended to be used that way. My plate doesn't have cam band slots, and I don't care to have them, so I feel like the LCD singles wings are a poor choice for me. At the same time, I can understand why others would be enthusiastic about them.

Personally, I like that I can switch between singles and doubles by turning a couple of screws and swapping out which wing is in the sandwich. I have no interest in threading and unthreading cam bands whenever I want to reconfigure my rig.

Unlacing and relacing cambands does get tedious, that's why our single rigs are designed to allow removal of the wing without undoing the cambands. Makes it very easy to tear down the rig and rinse everything post dive.

I'm not a big fan of STA's They are an additional cost, they move the tank further from the divers back, and they make post dive teardown more involved.

I don't see STA's as evil, just unnecessary. Some People like em, that's why our goods are designed to accomodate most STA's

STA's are one means of adding weight, and in theory make changing from a singles set up to doubles a bit faster. Given the balance of the changes required when swapping from single to doubles ( changing regs or maybe swapping hoses, changes in weighting, different wing, and of course different tanks) unlacing cambands is an acceptable tradeoff for me.


Regards,


Tobin

 

[UWSojourner]

Contact FredT. I hear he is back up and running. He provides a great plate and accessories.

 

[MSilvia]

Wide channel type weighted STA might interfer.

Yeah... but since one of the several reasons I like STAs is because of the added weight, I use the sort that doesn't seem to work with them so well.

I would never recommend hoisting any rig by the wing alone.

Nor I... in fact, I would recommend NOT doing that. It's not so much that I think there's a real likelyhood of there being a problem with it, but that it just LOOKS breakable, and unnecessarily so in light of my not having seen any other wings that do it like that. All things being equal, I prefer gear that seems bulletproof. I don't expect plastic buckles to break either, but that doesn't mean I choose to use them.

All of our plates have pairs of holes for trim adjustments, but if your are using a DSS single wing on a plate with a single set of holes you can still adjust trim by tank position, or simply ignore the holes altogether and let the tank and cambands locate the wing. This last approach can require a little fiddling, as the wing will slide around a bit.

You can indeed adjust trim with tank position, but if your tank is as high or low as you like it to be, and you don't have a slotted plate, it's nice to have the option if it's available... which it is with some other wings.

Unlacing and relacing cambands does get tedious, that's why our single rigs are designed to allow removal of the wing without undoing the cambands.

That's great for post dive rinsing and whatnot, but they still need to be removed if they're threaded through the plate and you want to hook up doubles.

I'm not a big fan of STA's They are an additional cost, they move the tank further from the divers back, and they make post dive teardown more involved.

Like so many other things, it's a tradeoff. I like them for the extra weight and for the simplicity of switching between singles and doubles they afford. I think the plate weights I saw on the DSS rig are a great alternative for the weighting, and they did give me a touch of gear envy, but that gets back to what I said earlier about the wing being best if matched with other DSS gear.

Given the balance of the changes required when swapping from single to doubles ( changing regs or maybe swapping hoses, changes in weighting, different wing, and of course different tanks) unlacing cambands is an acceptable tradeoff for me.

When not in use, I usually have my doubles wing already hooked up to my tanks with regs needing only to be screwed on. The same is true of my single tank setup. When I change between them, I just undo the screws (your delrin thumb screws are awesome BTW) on the inside of the plate, put the plate on the other rig, tighten both screws again, and connect the inflator hose. The weighting isn't substantially different, as I use AL80 doubles, so having to unlace or relace cambands would roughly triple the difficulty of the operation for me. It's a small thing maybe, but since there are other options that don't require it, I'd be disinclined to choose the added difficulty I associate with it even if my STA worked with the wing without issues.

Again, I understand the rationale behind the DSS system, and I think it's well thought out. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem to mesh well with the equipment choices I've already made for myself, and I don't see it as adding enough value to make it worth me changing. Everything else being equal though, I do like that it gets the tank a little closer to the body, and it's hard to take issue with the streamlined profile.

 

[Amphibious]

My DSS wing works just fine with my Halcyon Plate, oh, and my OMS Plate, Dive rite Plate....

See where this is going?

Have owned Halcyon Wings, Diverite Wings, Oxycheq Wings, and now a DSS wing.

I will buy DSS again. get's my vote.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Matt,

Seems we are mostly on the same page here. STA's have their place, but for the divers I have the most contact with they are unnecessary.

Some divers may routinely change from single tank diving to doubles. Instructors, DMs etc. Your approach might make sense for them, but in my experience most of these "frequent swappers" have more than one plate, some times this is for convienence, some times it's becasue they need a lighter plate for their doubles.

I almost never see people travel with all the gear required to dive both doubles and singles. Two wings, two sets of regs, two sets of tanks, is usually too much to hump to the boat, etc.

Ease of use for singles was a key design criteria for me, unlike years ago, most of the Back Plate and wings sold today are used with singles.


Regards,



Tobin

 

[GreenDiverDown]

I agree with Matt...

I only use STAs... I have four different weights and styles. STA-less design do not appeal to me.

I think the only way to get the most out of Tobin's gear is to use it as a system.

There are times when DSS gear won't match up well with other manufacturer's gear. If I'm mixing and matching... or as Tobin likes to say... when I'm puttin' together a Frankentein... I prefer to use gear that is more "standard". This is not a bad thing... afterall, Tobin designs his stuff to be different... "innovative", I believe is the description frequently used.

 

[adurso]

Hi guys, I am brand new to SB and relatively new to the diving community as a whole. I do, however, love the diving that I have done and plan to continue to increase my skill level well into the realm of tech diving. In turn, as I have already decided to go with a BP/W as my first BC purchase, I was just wondering if any of you vets out there could offer me some sound advice as to which brands/models are the best in the tech BP/W field. I was considering either an OMS (single bladder) system or the Dive Rite Trasnpac II w/ super wing

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I use a Golem Gear BP/W hog harness. Thing is bulletproof www.golemgear.com

 

[cool_hardware52]

I agree with Matt...

I only use STAs... I have four different weights and styles. STA-less design do not appeal to me.

Why, other than the ability to switch from singles to doubles without unlacing the cambands?

I think the only way to get the most out of Tobin's gear is to use it as a system.

No argument here. If you want all the benefits you need all the pieces.

There are times when DSS gear won't match up well with other manufacturer's gear. If I'm mixing and matching... or as Tobin likes to say... when I'm puttin' together a Frankentein... I prefer to use gear that is more "standard". This is not a bad thing... afterall, Tobin designs his stuff to be different... "innovative", I believe is the description frequently used.

There are no "Standards" for BackPlates, none period. Who would set them? The only "default standard" is the inclusion of at least one set of holes in the center spine of the plate for mounting banded manifolded doubles.

It is wrong to leave the impression that DSS's wings or plates are "nonstandard" or incompatible with other makes of wings, plates etc. This is simply untrue.

There is nothing to prevent use of a DSS plate with virtually any singles wing and a STA. Even in the unlikely event the tank stabilizer interfers with some STA it can be removed (un-sewn) Many third party singles wings will also line up with DSS plate slots, allowing "STA-Less" use, some may not.

There is nothing preventing the use of a DSS singles wing with any plate and a STA. Many 3rd party plates may also line up with the slots in a DSS wing, some may not.

There is nothing to keep someone from using a DSS plate with virtually any doubles wing.

There is nothing to prevent the use of a DDS Doubles wing with virtually any plate.

In short for doubles it's mix and match to your hearts content. For singles with a bolt on STA it's mix and match to your hearts content.

Only when you want to avoid using an ADAPTER i.e. a STA is there a possibility of a compatiblity issue, and even then many 3rd party combos will work.


Regards,


Tobin

 

[halocline]

The choice of an aluminum or steel plate would depend on your weighting; if you typically dive with 5-6 lbs of lead or more, go with the steel. One of the main benefits of diving a BP to me is getting the weight off my hips and on my back right between the tank and my lungs. The only possible problem with a steel plate would be a little overweighting in situations where you don't need any. For me that's diving in fresh water in a shorty with a steel tank. When that happens, (rarely) I just have to dive with a little more air in the wing. With an AL80, especially in salt water, the steel plate is terrific for trim.