when to 100'?
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To pull the analogy card, I have been a "sound guy" for many years. Church services, weddings, funerals, class plays, coffee shop sessions... I've seen more than my fair share. Ask any sound guy, and they'll tell you that running sound is hours of tedium punctuated by moments of sheer adrenaline (which is what pilots and all sorts of other people say about whatever *they* do, too).
Anyway, I had several sound guys working under me at various times and places, and most of the time, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between us. Most of the time, running sound is just getting what you hear to match what you'd like to be hearing, and that part of the job isn't too hard with a little practice. I could take a new guy and have him operationally-capable of handling a band rehearsal in about the time a weekend OW class takes these days.
Now, take that same person, and put them behind the board at a wedding (the tech dives of sound -- one mistake, and they'll remember it forever), and they might know it's a bit more toward the edge, but they could be decently comfortable. Most of the time, even in the potentially-stressful arena of wedding sound, they'd be perfectly fine. However... (and here's the big part)...
Now, if they happen to be running sound for the wedding, and 10 minutes before it starts, the bride shows up and changes the music, are they going to be able to roll with the surprises? (If the conditions change on the deep dive, do you know how to adjust?) Now, if the music was changed, and 5 minutes before it's supposed to start, an EQ leaks its magic smoke, can they diagnose the problem and handle it? Now, if they manage to reprogram the music and bodge something together around the bad EQ, and during quietest part of the ceremony, a passing trucker starts broadcasting over a bad cable *somewhere*, how long will it take to handle it?
I *NEVER* feel comfortable running sound for weddings. It's some of the most stressful sound I've ever done in my life (and that says something). I'm not scared or apprehensive or (too) terrified, but I'm constantly running through everything that could go wrong. I feel supremely confident in my abilities to handle almost anything that turns up (power outages are the hungry great whites, I suppose... nothing you can do about those), but bad things happen when you lose your edge.
I know other sound guys who are always laid back, even running major events or weddings, and I find it somewhat offensive when I see their comfort translate into poor performance. Most of the time, they do a fine job, but when the #2 hits the whirly, they fail to do the job to the quality that I require of myself.
In diving, it's not that you might give poor service to a client or disappoint a bride. You *could* die. With that card in play, although I certainly feel *competent* when I dive, and although I have *confidence* in my gear and its condition, I never want to completely "feel comfortable". I'm relaxed; I'm enjoying the dive, but I want to keep that edge to be ready to handle whatever comes along. (Or maybe I'm just odd... I skipped lunch today.)
Anyway, I had several sound guys working under me at various times and places, and most of the time, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between us. Most of the time, running sound is just getting what you hear to match what you'd like to be hearing, and that part of the job isn't too hard with a little practice. I could take a new guy and have him operationally-capable of handling a band rehearsal in about the time a weekend OW class takes these days.
Now, take that same person, and put them behind the board at a wedding (the tech dives of sound -- one mistake, and they'll remember it forever), and they might know it's a bit more toward the edge, but they could be decently comfortable. Most of the time, even in the potentially-stressful arena of wedding sound, they'd be perfectly fine. However... (and here's the big part)...
Now, if they happen to be running sound for the wedding, and 10 minutes before it starts, the bride shows up and changes the music, are they going to be able to roll with the surprises? (If the conditions change on the deep dive, do you know how to adjust?) Now, if the music was changed, and 5 minutes before it's supposed to start, an EQ leaks its magic smoke, can they diagnose the problem and handle it? Now, if they manage to reprogram the music and bodge something together around the bad EQ, and during quietest part of the ceremony, a passing trucker starts broadcasting over a bad cable *somewhere*, how long will it take to handle it?
I *NEVER* feel comfortable running sound for weddings. It's some of the most stressful sound I've ever done in my life (and that says something). I'm not scared or apprehensive or (too) terrified, but I'm constantly running through everything that could go wrong. I feel supremely confident in my abilities to handle almost anything that turns up (power outages are the hungry great whites, I suppose... nothing you can do about those), but bad things happen when you lose your edge.
I know other sound guys who are always laid back, even running major events or weddings, and I find it somewhat offensive when I see their comfort translate into poor performance. Most of the time, they do a fine job, but when the #2 hits the whirly, they fail to do the job to the quality that I require of myself.
In diving, it's not that you might give poor service to a client or disappoint a bride. You *could* die. With that card in play, although I certainly feel *competent* when I dive, and although I have *confidence* in my gear and its condition, I never want to completely "feel comfortable". I'm relaxed; I'm enjoying the dive, but I want to keep that edge to be ready to handle whatever comes along. (Or maybe I'm just odd... I skipped lunch today.)
paulwall:
The reply was to the point in the thread at the time--some posters used the idea of being "comfortable" with depth as a criterion. Other people spoke on that topic, too.
Are you saying my take on comfort as a criterion for deep diving was off topic?
tech108diver
Contributor
Ok I do agree with you guys to some point. I know some of you guys have more dives logged then I have hairs on my head. I'm very greatful that this board exist some you Uber experienced divers can chat one on one with guys who got there card 3 days ago. The point I'm tring to get across is that there are other groups that allow 130' as apart of the regular OW cert. The only reason this guy is feeling nervious about 100' is because he was not certified to 130' If he had been then maybe his question would be something like "When to 130" because he would feel that its the threshold of his certification and at that point I would absolutely say dont mess with depths past 130' because now I'm on that same page he is at 60'. I guess with out taking both PADI and my current cert company I can't compare the differences in the way they train. Does anyone understand what I'm trying to say?
tech108diver:
I'm not sure I understand what you are tring to say, but I suspect you may have a small misunderstanding about certification and depth.
If you get an OW certification, you are certified to dive. Unless a dive operator has a specific policy against it, you can go to any depth you want. If you go to the Blue Hole in Belize, you will find the operators taking brand new OW divers from any agency to 130 feet.
That does not make it a good idea.
Agencies strongly recommend against deep dives without further training, though, and that is the sentiment of most of the posters on this thread. The agencies generally use pretty strong language to recommend that you get further training and experience before going to those depths.
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What now? Why ... If only I hadn't bought a Halcyon!<G>BKP:
Crazy Fingers
Contributor
This is going to be the last time I beat this dead horse.
I am certified to 130 feet. And I have no problems diving to every foot of it. I follow the rules which physically govern my body. I pay attention to my gas supply, NDL, nark level, my buddy, and the condition of my equipment. I understand the consequences -- F up and you will drown or likely get DCS. Of course going to 100+ is more dangerous than staying above 60. No one is arguing that.
We can play what if games with anything. What if your mask gets ripped off at the same time you get tangled in fishing line at the same time your reg takes a dump? Well then I guess you're going to die because God apparently wants you dead. That's the risk you take when you get in the water, and I believe it is a small one and choose to accept it.
What I don't get about this is I actually am following the rules, and that's still not enough for the Scuba Gestap0. I dive within my certification limits, less than 130 feet (although there are plenty of spearos out here who routinely dive to 150 or more without entering deco. Some of them even take their BCs off and swim up way under ledges at a buck fifty, which I think is quite dangerous.) I follow all the rules that the industry made. THEY MADE THE RULES BECAUSE IF YOU FOLLOW THEM YOU DRASTICALLY REDUCE THE RISK OF SOMETHING BAD HAPPENING TO YOU. But following the rules isn't enough for you... it's almost like you demand newer divers be mentored over hundreds of dives before they reach the "big" 1-0-0. It's ridiculous.
You know what I really think? I think you all are probably superb divers. And you have a very, very low risk of ever getting injured (as opposed to my very low risk of getting injured). But you're pretty damn tame. I think you want to talk about how dangerous it is to validate your own manliness or ability to yourself. Or maybe you want to justify spending tens of thousands of bucks on your fancy certifications and hundreds/thousands of dives. This is why you don't want to think that someone with less than a hundred dives can do the things you do.
All I want is for newer divers to take what the gestap0 says with a grain of salt. They are excellent divers, yes. They have given me good advice about a lot of stuff. But diving is not so doom and gloom and dangerous as they make it out to be. You are not going to die just because you go to 100 feet. Just follow the rules...... follow the rules...... :mooner:
I am certified to 130 feet. And I have no problems diving to every foot of it. I follow the rules which physically govern my body. I pay attention to my gas supply, NDL, nark level, my buddy, and the condition of my equipment. I understand the consequences -- F up and you will drown or likely get DCS. Of course going to 100+ is more dangerous than staying above 60. No one is arguing that.
We can play what if games with anything. What if your mask gets ripped off at the same time you get tangled in fishing line at the same time your reg takes a dump? Well then I guess you're going to die because God apparently wants you dead. That's the risk you take when you get in the water, and I believe it is a small one and choose to accept it.
What I don't get about this is I actually am following the rules, and that's still not enough for the Scuba Gestap0. I dive within my certification limits, less than 130 feet (although there are plenty of spearos out here who routinely dive to 150 or more without entering deco. Some of them even take their BCs off and swim up way under ledges at a buck fifty, which I think is quite dangerous.) I follow all the rules that the industry made. THEY MADE THE RULES BECAUSE IF YOU FOLLOW THEM YOU DRASTICALLY REDUCE THE RISK OF SOMETHING BAD HAPPENING TO YOU. But following the rules isn't enough for you... it's almost like you demand newer divers be mentored over hundreds of dives before they reach the "big" 1-0-0. It's ridiculous.
You know what I really think? I think you all are probably superb divers. And you have a very, very low risk of ever getting injured (as opposed to my very low risk of getting injured). But you're pretty damn tame. I think you want to talk about how dangerous it is to validate your own manliness or ability to yourself. Or maybe you want to justify spending tens of thousands of bucks on your fancy certifications and hundreds/thousands of dives. This is why you don't want to think that someone with less than a hundred dives can do the things you do.
All I want is for newer divers to take what the gestap0 says with a grain of salt. They are excellent divers, yes. They have given me good advice about a lot of stuff. But diving is not so doom and gloom and dangerous as they make it out to be. You are not going to die just because you go to 100 feet. Just follow the rules...... follow the rules...... :mooner:
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I think that the ******* is BS and the 130 rule is BS but that most divers lack the training, skill, and/or gear to be at 130 ft or even 100 ft.
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