When is it okay to exceeding training limits?

[Bob DBF]

You have to ask yourself when will you draw the line?

Diving 10 feet deeper than what your trained to do is one thing, diving in an overhead environment is quite another. For me the answer is simple...even if I feel that I can easily exceed my training limits (I Dont).

- If you make a mistake what is the potential cost and what is the gain? (Potentially more than gear and a course)
- If you want to increase/change your depth/type of diving what will it cost and what will you gain?

Exceeding your personal limits does not mean that you have no responsibility to understanding what you are doing. If you have no reason to exceed your training, then don't, but you will have to go deeper than 130' to exceed the recreational limits that the OW certifies you to dive with the training you received.



Bob
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I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[NAM001]

As a duly licensed member of the language police, I submit that "training and experience" is a single thing. It's the sum of your training and your experience. If you've got an OW cert that never took you deeper than 40' in clear calm water, and you've now racked up 50 dives, including a bunch to 100', than you've definitely got "training and experience" that exceeds your OW cert..

I would argue that training and experience are 2 things and that training and experience to 100 ft means training to 100 ft and experience to 100 ft. This is the root of this age old argument. If your argument were ture why would there aow and deep courses if you only needed OW to 30 ft and the gall to go to 130 and back. It seems to say that ignoring limits is = to formal training. But then you dont appear to believe there were linits to begin with. Your above stement is saying that OW training is good to 130 and all you lack is experience.



[/QUOTE]I think one of the things that's clear from this thread is that there is no 60' limit:.[/QUOTE]

The PADI book seams to differ from that position....




.[/QUOTE]I've heard that a lot of health policies have very poor coverage for chamber rides, but I've never seen anything that limits the coverage based on your certification. Of course, that's not to say that an insurance policy doesn't have some kind of clause designed to give the insurance company a get out of jail free card. It's well known that health insurers pay fat bonuses to employees whose job is to find the reason for denying coverage..[/QUOTE]

Didnt DAN a while back attempt to recover costs from a diver who exceeded thier documented certification? Dont remember the specifics but it was on line with from a DEEP related issue and only having an OW card????

 

[AfterDark]

I've been thinking about this thread and have come to this conclusion, since I was certified in 1968 before there were all these "training limits" that means there are no limits for me to exceed. So I never exceed the limits of my training since there are no limits. How about that?

 

[KeithG]

The PADI book seams to differ from that position....

which PADI book?

I have 2 different versions in my possesion and they both are worded differently. i can find no reference to any limits in either book. the magic 130 is not mentioned anywhere i have looked. i think there is a "recommendation" in one about new divers staying above 60, but i am not sure of the wording.

---------- Post added January 17th, 2015 at 10:09 AM ----------

...Of course, that's not to say that an insurance policy doesn't have some kind of clause designed to give the insurance company a get out of jail free card. It's well known that health insurers pay fat bonuses to employees whose job is to find the reason for denying coverage..

insurance companies actually work slightly different than this, but many people attribute their behaviour to these motivations as it often looks like this from the outside.

many insurance products have very strick low limits in order to be able to price the product as low as possible so that all of the cheapskates will have something to buy. got it cheap? congratulations. but be aware that your policy will likely exclude many useful things that you may latter wish you had. kind of like getting a great deal on a car and then discovering there were no door or trunk locks, or radio, or windows,or ...

insurance companies also have very large fraud detection departments as a significant portion of claims are fraudulent. the bad guys out there think that insurance companies are easy targets. the side effect of this behaviour by the bad guys means that every now and then a claim made by one of us good guys does not pass the sniff test. the fraud squad will kick into high gear and be all over you.

 

[NAM001]

I did not make the ost you are quoting some one else did. i did respond to that post however.

As far as the padi book goes ther is a chapter on limits that say if the divers responsibioity to dive with thier traing and that this course has trained you to a max depth of xxxx. to extend that limit to take follow on courses such as AOW. The student also had to sign the training record where it said the student acknoledges that in the course of thier training they trained to a certain depth with certain vis ect. Also that the student acknoledged also that the student sgreed to dive with n thier training limits. This class was less than one year old. Each and every time i have gave a book and page number the responce is that it is just a recommendation. The book does not say recommendation it says it is the divers responsibility to..... The GF has her book right now, I wish i could get a photo of the training jacket whree she signed her asknoledgments regarding her limitations.

which PADI book?

I have 2 different versions in my possesion and they both are worded differently. i can find no reference to any limits in either book. the magic 130 is not mentioned anywhere i have looked. i think there is a "recommendation" in one about new divers staying above 60, but i am not sure of the wording.

---------- Post added January 17th, 2015 at 10:09 AM ----------


insurance companies actually work slightly different than this, but many people attribute their behaviour to these motivations as it often looks like this from the outside.

many insurance products have very strick low limits in order to be able to price the product as low as possible so that all of the cheapskates will have something to buy. got it cheap? congratulations. but be aware that your policy will likely exclude many useful things that you may latter wish you had. kind of like getting a great deal on a car and then discovering there were no door or trunk locks, or radio, or windows,or ...

insurance companies also have very large fraud detection departments as a significant portion of claims are fraudulent. the bad guys out there think that insurance companies are easy targets. the side effect of this behaviour by the bad guys means that every now and then a claim made by one of us good guys does not pass the sniff test. the fraud squad will kick into high gear and be all over you.

 

[tursiops]

The student also had to sign the training record where it said the student acknoledges that in the course of thier training they trained to a certain depth with certain vis ect. Also that the student acknoledged also that the student sgreed to dive with n thier training limits. This class was less than one year old. Each and every time i have gave a book and page number the responce is that it is just a recommendation. The book does not say recommendation it says it is the divers responsibility to..... The GF has her book right now, I wish i could get a photo of the training jacket whree she signed her asknoledgments regarding her limitations.

Attached is the Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding that is part of the PADI OW training record. It is signed by each participant, before the class, along with a medical statement and a liability release. I've highlighted the relevant parts. Also attached is the Student Statement that is signed after all four certification dives have been completed. NOTHING is more than a statement of understanding...NOTHING is an agreement to stay above 60 feet or whatever. The student is signing that they understand the recommendation, not that there is some limit within which they agree to dive. They are certified to 130 feet, but it is recommended they don't go there, just as it is recommended they refresh after 6 months of inactivity.
View attachment Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding V20 - 10060.pdf
View attachment Student Statement.pdf

 

[Akimbo]

I've been thinking about this thread and have come to this conclusion, since I was certified in 1968 before there were all these "training limits" that means there are no limits for me to exceed. So I never exceed the limits of my training since there are no limits. How about that?

Like you, I can’t say I ever exceeded my training — as evidenced by not being dead. Fortunately I was trained well enough initially to govern my limits by the laws of physics and physiology rather than an arbitrary definition that very few divers adhere to anyway.

 

[NAM001]

Yes those documents are very familiar. She also had to sign somthing that said just what exposure she received in training. that was like 34 ft with 5-10 foot vis. That document is not a recommendation. It is a document to get the trainer off the hook when the student goes out and gets hurt and tries to blame the instructor. The instructor pulls out this sheet and says she understood that she was only trained to dive in water no deeper than 34 ft with greater than 5-10 ft vis. The document is not for hte safety fo the diver it is for the liability protection of the trainer. Never has a recommendation required a document. No document has ever saved a diver of contributed to thier safety. Documents are legal instruments. You may call it a statement of understanding and that is just what it is a statement of understanding of what the standards/limits are. To exceed them violates the standard. If the diver has dove out side the limits of the standard, the cause of thier dive related issue's are not the instrictor or agency's because they were told not to exceed thier traiing exposure and limits. The document verifies that. In application they are limits and treated as limits when the instructor/agency needs a legal way out. I have on many occasions asked how ows get to do deeper dives. The responce many times is the the limits do not apply because they have a divemaster/instructor in the water with them (making this = to a training dive) that allows them to exceed thier training experience. After a while you hear it all. As far as the 6 month reresher thing. what happens if someone does not follow the recommendations ad the incident inquire comes to your door to question the quality of the training you gave them. What will you do. I can guarentee you will shut the door on them or hand them the divers signed statement of understanding and say they violated it by exceecing a 6 month gap. That makes,in application, the 6 month thing a rule or limit also. So inshort if you get back to the boat its a recommendation if not it is a rule or exceeded limit.

Attached is the Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding that is part of the PADI OW training record. It is signed by each participant, before the class, along with a medical statement and a liability release. I've highlighted the relevant parts. Also attached is the Student Statement that is signed after all four certification dives have been completed. NOTHING is more than a statement of understanding...NOTHING is an agreement to stay above 60 feet or whatever. The student is signing that they understand the recommendation, not that there is some limit within which they agree to dive. They are certified to 130 feet, but it is recommended they don't go there, just as it is recommended they refresh after 6 months of inactivity.
View attachment 201469
View attachment 201470

 

[KeithG]

Attached is the Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding that is part of the PADI OW training record. It is signed by each participant, before the class, along with a medical statement and a liability release. I've highlighted the relevant parts. Also attached is the Student Statement that is signed after all four certification dives have been completed. NOTHING is more than a statement of understanding...NOTHING is an agreement to stay above 60 feet or whatever. The student is signing that they understand the recommendation, not that there is some limit within which they agree to dive. They are certified to 130 feet, but it is recommended they don't go there, just as it is recommended they refresh after 6 months of inactivity.

Thanks - those are neat. but not relevant to the real world of many divers. i noticed one document was copyright 2009.

any idea when they started this? they certainly where not around when i was certified.

 

[TMHeimer]

Recent posts seem to verify what I said a while back-- that the wording is vague. And posts recently refer to the OW 130' limit as well. Anyone notice some really bad punctuation....see you in The Pub.