When is it okay to exceeding training limits?

[shoredivr]

In Tobermory, Ontario, where there are a number of cold water, deep wrecks and walls 100ft to 130ft and deeper, the charter boats want AOW for the deeper wrecks.

When I got my AOW in 1998 there was a deep dive included in the course, and 130ft was the recommended depth "limit". I'd be irritated to have an operator say AOW wasn't sufficient to dive past 80ft. Should I carry my ANP/Deco for 80 to 130ft no deco dives or what lol.

 

[Akimbo]

... There, we were segregated into groups, and each group had a depth limit. I was in the 80 foot limit group, because I only had my AOW card with me, and not my Deep specialty card...

I started carrying a USB thumb drive with scanned images of all C-cards, Navy wall-hanger certs, medical info, contact info, references like the US Navy Diving Manual, dive logs, and some images that might be useful to share. All the more recent certs can be verified online. I’m glad that it worked out OK for you on this trip but it would be a bummer if you couldn’t make a dive you planned on.

 

[bl6394]

First - I'll disagree with a few of you...

Speaking only as a PADI professional - I would disagree with those that think a professional (DM or higher) has no liability when LEADING as opposed to training. Specifically - one of the rights of a PADI DM or higher is to conduct a "Discover Local Diving" experiences for clients e.g. a guided tour. While leading clients on a Discover Local Diving experience - if a DM knowingly takes clients beyond their certification level - AND something goes wrong - the DM would be responsible for violating at least two of the PADI member code of practices:

10. Comply with the intent of the PADI Standard SafeDiving Practices Statement of Understanding whileteaching and supervising.
14. Respect and reinforce the depth and supervisoryrestrictions as displayed on restricted PADI certificationcards, such as PADI Scuba Diver and Junior Diver.

The DM would probably argue - "I wasn't really leading or supervising. I was just in a buddy group with one or more other much less experienced divers who were diving beyond their training limitations with me..." In that case, I wouldn't expect the certifying agency to come to their defense in court. And I would not try to predict the outcome of a civil trial.

For myself - I find it helpful not to have any knowledge of people violating the limitation of their training, nor do I choose to be part of a dive team that is doing so. Nothing personal - I'm not judging you. I'm just trying to limit my own liability.

But back to the original question. If you are in a properly conducted training program under the supervision of an instructor - your skill development may involve doing things that are beyond your current certification limit. This is part of the training experience.

Outside of that training setting - you can exceed your training limits when you accept responsibility for what you know - and more importantly what you DON'T know. That means accepting any consequences that result from that dive...

I would love to dive with you in a hard/soft overhead environment, beyond the recreational limits, using mixed gasses up to 100% oxygen for accelerated decompression. However, I would encourage you to get the training and equipment to do those dives safely.

 

[victorzamora]

14. Respect and reinforce the depth and supervisoryrestrictions as displayed on restricted PADI certificationcards, such as PADI Scuba Diver and Junior Diver.

I think the point being made by many is that the open water card doesn't limit you to 60ft. Open Water training is limited to 60ft. Jr OW is limited to a depth. Scuba diver is limited to a depth. I'll have to check my wife's card when I get home, but I don't think OW cards state a depth limit.

Makes me more certain PADI limits OW divers to 130ft and no overhead one experience is obtained.

 

[boulderjohn]

Makes me more certain PADI limits OW divers to 130ft and no overhead one experience is obtained.

There is no PADI rule that says you cannot go into ANY overhead environment. Caves are specifically mentioned as being off limits. The PADI-approved Distinctive Specialty Understanding Overhead Environments teaches divers the difference between overhead environments that need different levels of equipment, training, and experience. At one extreme, just about anyone is good to swim through a simple arch. At the other extreme, cave diving requires thorough training and specialized equipment. The course teaches divers why that is true and how they can judge their own abilities, training, and experience when considering diving in an overhead environment.

 

[victorzamora]

There is no PADI rule that says you cannot go into ANY overhead environment. Caves are specifically mentioned as being off limits. The PADI-approved Distinctive Specialty Understanding Overhead Environments teaches divers the difference between overhead environments that need different levels of equipment, training, and experience. At one extreme, just about anyone is good to swim through a simple arch. At the other extreme, cave diving requires thorough training and specialized equipment. The course teaches divers why that is true and how they can judge their own abilities, training, and experience when considering diving in an overhead environment.

You're right, and I didn't mean swim troughs or simple wrecks. I meant "real" overheads (as awful as that sounds). My main point was 60ft versus 130ft.

 

[Crass3000]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but I believe DAN insurance will only pay benefits if the diver was within the limits they have been trained for.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but I believe DAN insurance will only pay benefits if the diver was within the limits they have been trained for.

False (at least for DAN USA). Know what's awesome? Reading DAN policy documents available to anyone online, before running your mouth about what you "believe."

 

[mk706]

I'm not a PADI instructor, but did take a PADI wreck course. Seem to recall a couple basic rules:
- no more than 200' linear feet from the surface at any point
- if you cannot see daylight in front and behind, run a continuous guideline to daylight

Overhead implies the absence of a direct avenue to the surface. A diver must use common sense, diving through a swim through where you can clearly see, and have access to multiple egress points is not the same as entering a wreck or cave where there is no access to the surface for hundreds or thousands of feet.

Example, diving the Spiegel Grove. Clearly a diver makes widely different plans when diving the swim-throughs aft to fore at ~70' where the interior is wide, clear of entanglement hazards and has cut outs to the exterior every 50', than diving the aft main machinery room at 130', where it hasn't been cleaned out, is full of silt and no cut outs.

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[Redshift]

Your PADI wreck course included wreck penetration using line for when daylight was not visible?!