When is a skill "mastered"?

[LFMarm]

I don’t consider Master Diver even worth a discussion.

I was more referring to the recommendation to teach and test OW skills while neutrally buoyant. It was definitely not the case when I got certified 15 years ago and I am now thinking about my kids going to get certified in the coming couple of years. I would prefer them to learn the “right” way from the beginning, if possible.

 

[Zef]

I don’t consider Master Diver worth any discussion.

I was more referring to the recommendation to teach and test OW skills neutrally buoyant. It was definitely not the case when I got certified 15 years ago and I am now getting interested thinking about my kids going to be certified in the coming couple of years. I would definitely prefer them to learn the right way from the beginning if possible.

Given that diving can be a lifetime activity, and the short length of exposure your kids will have in that "lifetime" to their OW instructor, spend less time worrying about them "learning the right way from the beginning" and just get them certified...then set a good example and take them diving while instituting good habits and techniques.

The majority of OW certification courses consist of 5 open water dives, one of which is usually a surface swim and snorkle activity....and I was just listening the other day to a colleague who is a dive instructor discuss with another colleague how he could and usually teaches the entire OW course over a weekend. The amount of time your kids will spend with their instructor, although that time might initially be formative, is scant compared to the amount of time you will spend with them instilling a "better" way to dive, so their initial training should not cripple their ability to overcome and/or refine anything their instructor imparts.

I think "learning the right way" is a very subjective thing and is often blown out of proportion by folks in discussion forums. I would agree that it would be great if folks learned to control their buoyancy well from the start, but I also don't begrudge and instructor for choosing what they think is the safest most efficient way for them to herd the cats they have while turning them into divers.....if it was up to me, an OW course would take weeks or months, not days.

Worry less, dive more!

Just saying.

-Z

 

[tursiops]

What doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that one BIG reason for teaching on knees was "control," that is, the ability to control a mixed class of students. Some training accidents many years ago were due to the instructor not having control of the class....so the solution was to plant the students on the bottom to prevent the run-aways. Any issues with overweighting and not learning neutral buoyancy could be fixed later, but let's not kill the students in the first pool sessions. Even in the IE, loss of control of the class was a bigger issue in passing than any subtleties on buoyancy or trim or weighting.
As usual, patches for problems can have unintended consequences.

 

[boulderjohn]

What doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that one BIG reason for teaching on knees was "control," that is, the ability to control a mixed class of students. Some training accidents many years ago were due to the instructor not having control of the class....so the solution was to plant the students on the bottom to prevent the run-aways. Any issues with overweighting and not learning neutral buoyancy could be fixed later, but let's not kill the students in the first pool sessions. Even in the IE, loss of control of the class was a bigger issue in passing than any subtleties on buoyancy or trim or weighting.
As usual, patches for problems can have unintended consequences.

When we prepared to write our article, we had well-known scuba historian Dr. Sam Miller on the team. His primary job was to research the history of it. When did teaching on the knees start? When did it start. What he discovered was that it was taught that way from the very start because there was no means of achieving buoyancy then--not even a wetsuit. On the knees or on the butt were the ways to do it, and it continued even after the invention of wetsuits and primitive BCDs.

If you teach neutrally buoyant and horizontal, there is LESS of a control problem. A student on the knees has only to straighten the legs to begin a bolt to the surface.

 

[tursiops]

When we prepared to write our article, we had well-known scuba historian Dr. Sam Miller on the team. His primary job was to research the history of it. When did teaching on the knees start? When did it start. What he discovered was that it was taught that way from the very start because there was no means of achieving buoyancy then--not even a wetsuit. On the knees or on the butt were the ways to do it, and it continued even after the invention of wetsuits and primitive BCDs.

If you teach neutrally buoyant and horizontal, there is LESS of a control problem. A student on the knees has only to straighten the legs to begin a bolt to the surface.

No disrespect meant to Sam, but most of his contributions seemed very constrained to a S. California view of diving and life.

 

[boulderjohn]

No disrespect meant to Sam, but most of his contributions seemed very constrained to a S. California view of diving and life.

So are you saying that students originally started learning scuba while neutrally buoyant, without either wetsuits or BCDs? Could you supply some documentation of that?

 

[tursiops]

So are you saying that students originally started learning scuba while neutrally buoyant, without either wetsuits or BCDs? Could you supply some documentation of that?

Where did I say that? Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

However it all started -- and I DID say that I would not automatically take Sam's word for it -- that some training incidents (I'm guessing in the 1980s) put a much larger focus on CONTROL, and planting students on the bottom was the immediate fix to do that.
You can fix -- the argument went-- buoyancy later, but not if the student managed to do an uncontrolled ascent and died. So, you teach with CONTROL as a primary concern and fix any problems caused by it later.

 

[scubadada]

No disrespect meant to Sam, but most of his contributions seemed very constrained to a S. California view of diving and life.

Where all the initial scuba training originated, Scripps and LA County.

 

[Zef]

We often talk about new divers being task loaded/task overloaded by the environment, their equipment, and their developing skillset. What then is the incentive for an instructor, often given limited pool/confined water time, take a group of people with varying comfort levels, varying athletic ability, varying swimming ability, varying focus ability, to put them in a situation totally new, with equipment they are not familiar with, and they have to pay attention, learn, and assimilate a skillset that their life depends on, all while managing body position and buoyancy?

I am not saying it can't be done. And, I am certainly not saying it shouldn't be done. But there is not a whole lot of incentive for an instructor to institute neutral buoyancy as the overarching skill at the beginning with which they will introduce/teach all other skills.

Whether it is perception or reality, I believe most instructors lean towards having their students on the bottom as both being safer and facilitating their students' ability to observe, absorb, and learn the skills required to obtain certification.

-Z

 

[tursiops]

Where all the initial scuba training originated, Scripps and LA County.

Yes, in the US. Not in France or Italy. And quite distinct from the UK early training.