When is a cave a cave?

[contender]

The majority of the ones that died probably did so because they didn't exercise good judgement. This is as true for those with the specialty as those without it.

I hear what you're saying and encourage training, but a specialty card doesn't help you when the *hit hits the fan... People put too much faith in a plastic card and not enough in preparation and attitude.

Sorry, but without cave & cavern training you won't know what to do when the defecation hits the oscilliation. These reaction skills are what you learn in class under the watchful eye of your instructor.
Telling anyone that they have good enough judgement and can handle the Cavern without training is negligent at best.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

I never said anything about a specilaty card.... I was talking about a full cavern class from one of the Technical agencies NACD, NSS-CDS, NAUI, IANTD, TDS etc... cavern classes from those agencies tend to be a little more than a platic card.

You don't know what you don't know, and ignorance is bliss. To just tell someone to have good judgement when going into caverns and caves is not enough.

 

[Caver95]

What do you mean by "Pioneers don't have the luxury to get proper training?" By the way, the Florida Speleological Society developed the first cave diving training program in the United States, complete with training standards 1n 1953.

Ever dive from a boat? Do you have a boat diving specialty?
Ever dive at night? Do you have a night diving specialty?
Ever dive with a dry suit? Do you have a dry suit specialty?
Ever take a photograph underwater? Do you have a u/w photography specialty?
I could go on....

There is a difference of opinion as to why most diving specialties were created. Some believe they were created to provide Divers with information into different types of diving, while others believe they were created to increase revenues to certification agencies, dive stores and Instructors.

Whatever way you decide, I believe them to be valuable. There are however other ways to learn & advance your skill set. Some choose to dive with others who have this experience, others choose to take a course. To each their own.

More specialized areas such as Cave Diving, Deep Diving, Mixed Gas, etc. pose an obviously greater hazard. As far as the OPs question is concerned however, I believe if two advanced divers wants to go into a cavern in-sight of the surface, with proper equipment and exercising good judgement, I don't think they are "tempting fate" at all.

Do you always advocate not getting trained? Are you pissed so much you spent your training of all the junk you have in your signature? Your attitude sucks and I would never ever take a class from you.

 

[PfcAJ]

The majority of the ones that died probably did so because they didn't exercise good judgement. This is as true for those with the specialty as those without it.

I hear what you're saying and encourage training, but a specialty card doesn't help you when the *hit hits the fan... People put too much faith in a plastic card and not enough in preparation and attitude.

You're exactly right. They didn't exercise good judgement, and neither are you. Going cave(rn) diving without training is flat out dumb.

Cave training isn't your run of the mill specialty card. Someone with all the credentials you list should be able to recognize that. Advocating that an 'advanced diver' (whatever that is) is fine going into an overhead is just ridiculously ignorant and screams stupidity for anyone with an ounce of real experience. If they have good judgement, then they would have the training, and we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

The cocky 'I know what I'm doing, I don't need training' or 'the rules don't apply to me' attitude is exactly what gets people killed. Cut it out. We're already lost divers this year due to that exact same attitude.

 

[DCBC]

I never said anything about a specilaty card.... I was talking about a full cavern class from one of the Technical agencies NACD, NSS-CDS, NAUI, IANTD, TDS etc... cavern classes from those agencies tend to be a little more than a platic card.

Regarding the OP, I don't think anyone was referring to technical diving, caves, or penetration diving. What I said was "I believe if two advanced divers want to go into a cavern in-sight of the surface, with proper equipment and exercising good judgement, I don't think they are "tempting fate at all."

Cavern diving is by definition, a form of recreational diving. This means among other things, that divers can obtain recreational-level Specialty Diver certifications in cavern diving from open-water training agencies such as NAUI, PADI, SDI, ACUC and SSI.

Others may argue, Cavern diving is the exploration of permanent, naturally occurring overhead environments while remaining within sight of their entrances. As you will note, my comment mentioned within sight of the surface which entails little or no penetration whatsoever. For this type of diving, a "cavern specialty" is not recommended by any diving certification agency of which I'm aware. It's analogous to non-penetration wreck diving.

As an Instructor I promote and have taught a number of specialties (Cavern diving included). If any diver decides to penetrate a wreck, cavern, pipeline, anything, further training is required. I do not however take a "you're gonna die" attitude if someone pokes his head into a cavern or a wreck. It's all about diving within your capabilities and exercising good common sense.

 

[DCBC]

You're exactly right. They didn't exercise good judgement, and neither are you. Going cave(rn) diving without training is flat out dumb.

Cave training isn't your run of the mill specialty card. Someone with all the credentials you list should be able to recognize that. Advocating that an 'advanced diver' (whatever that is) is fine going into an overhead is just ridiculously ignorant and screams stupidity for anyone with an ounce of real experience. If they have good judgement, then they would have the training, and we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

The cocky 'I know what I'm doing, I don't need training' or 'the rules don't apply to me' attitude is exactly what gets people killed. Cut it out. We're already lost divers this year due to that exact same attitude.

Perhaps you should read what I said carefully and not over react to what you thought was said...

 

[PfcAJ]

Which part? This one?

More specialized areas such as Cave Diving, Deep Diving, Mixed Gas, etc. pose an obviously greater hazard. As far as the OPs question is concerned however, I believe if two advanced divers wants to go into a cavern in-sight of the surface, with proper equipment and exercising good judgement, I don't think they are "tempting fate" at all.

Go ahead and define 'advanced' for me. Then, lets tack on 'proper equipment'. In sight of the surface? The water is often crystal clear in Florida, and the surface (while visible) is damn far away when the *hit hits the fan, as you so eloquently put it, especially when your 'advanced' divers don't have the proper training.

All this 'good judgment' talk goes right out the window as soon as a diver enters the cavern without training.

 

[DCBC]

Do you always advocate not getting trained? Are you pissed so much you spent your training of all the junk you have in your signature? Your attitude sucks and I would never ever take a class from you.

Whoa! To answer your questions: No, I'm not advocating not getting training. No, I'm not pissed at the time I've spent in my training; and I'm sorry you have misinterpreted what I have said.

 

[TSandM]

I would wholeheartedly agree that, as long as the divers retain sight of the surface, there's little risk in swimming into a cavern.

BUT -- maintaining a view of the surface is not just related to how far in you go! Most of the caves that would be inviting to swim into (in other words, ones that aren't doing their best to spit you out) have silty bottoms, and that silt can be thick, fine, and stay suspended for a long time. Blow the viz, and you have lost your sight of your exit; you have no training in following a line, assuming you had one, and you may well have lost your buddy as well.

There is a hair-raising story on one of these boards of a young man who swam into a small cavern off a spring, got into silt, couldn't see his exit, and although he KNEW the cavern was small, had no going passage, and one exit, it took him a tremendous amount of time to get out.

I'm sorry, but it's simply irresponsible to tell untrained divers that it's just fine if they swim in "a little way".

 

[Caver95]

Whoa! To answer your questions: No, I'm not advocating not getting training. No, I'm not pissed at the time I've spent in my training; and I'm sorry you have misinterpreted what I have said.

Then you should clean up your post. From what your saying if you just go in a little bit its ok? I dont follow. No amount of ow diving will prepare you for the cave environment. There are many people that died figuring things out on there own. Common sense would tell you to seak proper training. It took Sheck 6 years to do the grand traverse at peacock springs, if you take a zero to hero course you can do it in one week. there is no need to reinvent the wheel nor is there any reason to be dead wrong about your ideas of an overhead environment.