When is a cave a cave?

[Paul Lenharr]

Do you all feel that Alexander Springs might be a good place for txapacheguy to dive? It would be a good introductory spring dive, and while there is a very small cavern there, from what I saw, it would take some pretty amazing circumstances to get yourself in a bind by entering it.

Just a thought as I had a really good time diving Alexander. Here is a video I took while diving there this year.

http://www.vimeo.com/6252043
I make entry into the small cavern area around the 4 minute mark. Not only are the restrictions just too tight to fit in, but the back wall is only 10 feet or so from the entrance. I literally just had enough room to turn around.

Also, txapacheguy, why not sign up to take a cavern course with your wife? Not only did the training prepare me to enter the cavern areas of these springs, but I feel that I am a much safer and all around better diver after I took the 2 day course. I use the skills I learned in NACD Cavern training in all aspects of my diving now.

 

[ucfdiver]

Not only are the restrictions just too tight to fit in...

Umm, I'm near positive there's line in those places that are too tight to fit in

 

[DCBC]

I would never consider taking myself, or my wife into a cave without proper training and equipment, but would like to do a bit of sightseeing in what I believe to be a relatively safe environment.

Cave diving pioneers like Jochen Hasenmayer (Germany), Bertrand Leger (France), Graham Balcombe (Great Britian), Charles McNabb (U.S.) and George Benjamin (Canada) weren't "certified cave divers." You can't teach good judgment and common sense.

It sounds to me that you're level headed enough not to get into trouble around a cavern. Have fun!

 

[kidsdream]

Something so special to dive an intact wooden wreck that was sailing around the time of the war between the states - anchors, winches, mast and carved figureheads.

Like so many other things in life, cave diving is either your thing or its not. I knew, from the first video I ever watched, that this was something I HAD to do if I possibly could. On the other hand, I've watched dozens of wreck diving videos, and still have a hard time understanding why people go to the lengths they do to go down and look at twisted, rusting metal -- and especially why anybody wants to go inside it.

However, I wouldn't make any judgments about the allure of cave diving based on a long salt water swim-through -- even if you were in the dark a bit, that's not much like what real honest-to-goodness cave diving is like.

 

[txapacheguy]

Also, txapacheguy, why not sign up to take a cavern course with your wife? Not only did the training prepare me to enter the cavern areas of these springs, but I feel that I am a much safer and all around better diver after I took the 2 day course. I use the skills I learned in NACD Cavern training in all aspects of my diving now.

I can't believe that I opened a can of worms that has gone ten pages long already!!! Again, Thanks to all who have contributed their advice, experience, and opinions.
My wife and I drove down to Vortex Saturday and did two daytime dives. It was a great time, and I enjoyed getting a look at the cavern. We elected not to venture into the cavern for now, but we both enjoyed getting to explore all of the "attractions" there at Vortex.
We will definitely be doing the cavern course once we get our own gear and time to do the training, and will probably be be doing the wreck specialty and NITROX down in Panama City Beach next month... I would like to get a better handle on buoyancy and trim before we tackle the caves as well. We will probably try to finish accumulating our own gear before taking the cave/cavern training since it sucks trying to get used to a different set of rental gear every time we dive.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Cave diving pioneers like Jochen Hasenmayer (Germany), Bertrand Leger (France), Graham Balcombe (Great Britian), Charles McNabb (U.S.) and George Benjamin (Canada) weren't "certified cave divers." You can't teach good judgment and common sense.

It sounds to me that you're level headed enough not to get into trouble around a cavern. Have fun!

Pioneers don't have the luxury to get proper training. They did what they did to set a precedense. Many others didn't live through it. We have established rules and classes widely available now, no reason to go tempting fate at this point in time.

 

[DCBC]

Pioneers don't have the luxury to get proper training. They did what they did to set a precedense. Many others didn't live through it. We have established rules and classes widely available now, no reason to go tempting fate at this point in time.

What do you mean by "Pioneers don't have the luxury to get proper training?" By the way, the Florida Speleological Society developed the first cave diving training program in the United States, complete with training standards 1n 1953.

Ever dive from a boat? Do you have a boat diving specialty?
Ever dive at night? Do you have a night diving specialty?
Ever dive with a dry suit? Do you have a dry suit specialty?
Ever take a photograph underwater? Do you have a u/w photography specialty?
I could go on....

There is a difference of opinion as to why most diving specialties were created. Some believe they were created to provide Divers with information into different types of diving, while others believe they were created to increase revenues to certification agencies, dive stores and Instructors.

Whatever way you decide, I believe them to be valuable. There are however other ways to learn & advance your skill set. Some choose to dive with others who have this experience, others choose to take a course. To each their own.

More specialized areas such as Cave Diving, Deep Diving, Mixed Gas, etc. pose an obviously greater hazard. As far as the OPs question is concerned however, I believe if two advanced divers wants to go into a cavern in-sight of the surface, with proper equipment and exercising good judgement, I don't think they are "tempting fate" at all.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

More specialized areas such as Cave Diving, Deep Diving, Mixed Gas, etc. pose an obviously greater hazard. As far as the OPs question is concerned however, I believe if two advanced divers wants to go into a cavern in-sight of the surface, with proper equipment and exercising good judgement, I don't think they are "tempting fate" at all.

I would add cavern to this list as well, all of these courses listed have a common element to them, they all are likely to have an overhead be it hard, or virtual. Also I agree with superbugman it is extrememly economical, and easy these days to simply take a cavern course. If anything it will make one a much better diver, and will allow them to enjoy a potentially extremely hazardous environment safely. There is no reason to tempt fate!

 

[LiteHedded]

What do you mean by "Pioneers don't have the luxury to get proper training?" By the way, the Florida Speleological Society developed the first cave diving training program in the United States, complete with training standards 1n 1953.

Ever dive from a boat? Do you have a boat diving specialty?
Ever dive at night? Do you have a night diving specialty?
Ever dive with a dry suit? Do you have a dry suit specialty?
Ever take a photograph underwater? Do you have a u/w photography specialty?
I could go on....

There is a difference of opinion as to why most diving specialties were created. Some believe they were created to provide Divers with information into different types of diving, while others believe they were created to increase revenues to certification agencies, dive stores and Instructors.

Whatever way you decide, I believe them to be valuable. There are however other ways to learn & advance your skill set. Some choose to dive with others who have this experience, others choose to take a course. To each their own.

More specialized areas such as Cave Diving, Deep Diving, Mixed Gas, etc. pose an obviously greater hazard. As far as the OPs question is concerned however, I believe if two advanced divers wants to go into a cavern in-sight of the surface, with proper equipment and exercising good judgement, I don't think they are "tempting fate" at all.

neither did any of the other ones who got themselves killed doing just that...

 

[DCBC]

neither did any of the other ones who got themselves killed doing just that...

The majority of the ones that died probably did so because they didn't exercise good judgement. This is as true for those with the specialty as those without it.

I hear what you're saying and encourage training, but a specialty card doesn't help you when the *hit hits the fan... People put too much faith in a plastic card and not enough in preparation and attitude.