when a wreck becomes a gravesite?

[raxafarian]

O-ring once bubbled...

...but that doesn't mean we can't argue about it...it never stopped us before

You've seen arguments on this board before






If I had been on a ship that sunk, I wouldn't really care if some diver wanted my watch. I feel that disturbing remains is wrong. But if a dollar bill is sticking out of my pocket... go ahead and take it. If my diamond ring fell off the bone of my finger.... go ahead, pick it up.

I wouldn't really care if you had to kick me aside to get to a "find", but others might find that morally wrong, and I wouldn't do it to another body because I don't know how they feel.

 

[Louie]

As it has become apparent in this thread - and countless other threads on the matter - responsible and concerned divers are not the problem. They observe proper rules of conduct and behave accordingly at a wreck (or on land) where there is sensitivity rising from its history, both recent and distant.
However, it's those whose actions are motivated by glory and greed who can bring diving into disrepute. I've been utterly disgusted hearing tales at wreck sites of plundering, theft and (doesn't bear thinking about) grave robbing.
Proper management and regulation of wreck sites are crucial in protecting what's left of them.
I watched a very interesting documentary about Chuuk Lagoon on TV last night. A group of underwater archaeologists using sophisticated equipment found a previously unknown wreck in the Lagoon but within 24 hours of this significant discovery, word got round and some plundering thief stole the ship's bell(!!) In this same programme, the problem of wreck pilfering was discussed. As there is demand for wreck relics, items were being auctioned on ebay.

So what can we make a case for:

Education - for divers and non-divers
Regulation and management of wrecks
Policing and monitoring

AND if you see someone plundering a wreck, shoot them with your speargun

 

[Soggy]

raxafarian once bubbled...
You've seen arguments on this board before

Yes, and they are always highly rational, devoid of emotion. :bonk:

I wouldn't really care if you had to kick me aside to get to a "find", but others might find that morally wrong, and I wouldn't do it to another body because I don't know how they feel.

I agree...but most people that say things are "morally" wrong don't really consider what the word means. Many people say, "that is morally wrong" and really mean, "I don't like that." Moral reasons are much more rational than that.

In my opinion, many of the laws in this country are "I don't like that" type laws, not, "this is wrong." This is why we want to keep wreck diving out the hands of the law makers.

 

[WreckWriter]

Louie once bubbled...
So what can we make a case for:

Education - for divers and non-divers
Regulation and management of wrecks
Policing and monitoring

Only the first is acceptable.

WW

 

[Ontario Diver]

quote:
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Louie once bubbled...
So what can we make a case for:

Education - for divers and non-divers
Regulation and management of wrecks
Policing and monitoring
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Education - You Betcha!

Regulation: Needed (unfortunatley).... Sets the standard of behaviour. Also set which wrecks must be protected - Marine Sanctuary, War Grave, Historical Protected, etc.) There should be management for the wrecks that deserve it

Policing - unfortunateley also needed. As much as I would like to see self policing, We'll still need to pop a few folks in jail to get the point across.

I also believe that not all wrecks needs protecting. Some do not have any historic, archeological, or will be visited by other divers. Some will quickly disappear to the forces of tide and salt water.

As for the removal of human remains/artifacts - well we've all visited the mummy exhibits in museams, seen archeologists digging up old cemetaries. For some wrecks the same holds true.

Some wrecks need protecting....those should be protected but it is not a black and white situation.

 

[djhall]

I should probably research prior threads before throwing this into the ring, but what is the difference between "plundering" a wreck and "salvaging artifacts"? I read about divers taking tools down to wrecks and removing bells, steering wheels, propellers, and portholes, cutting holes in the sides of ships, and altering wrecks in all sorts of ways searching for and recovering artifacts. The cumulative effect of this has to be a major alteration and defacing of the ship. I would think this has the effect of robbing future divers of the experience of diving a "virgin" wreck, ie. the ship as it sank rather than as it is after being trashed by a bunch of greedy divers more interested in taking souveniers than preserving the wreck for everyone to experience and enjoy.

 

[Tim Ingersoll]

The most important things in life are not things! The sooner we all learn that the happier we will be. That artifact you pick up is garage sale fodder for your children when you pass on. Leave it where it is.

 

[WreckWriter]

Tim Ingersoll once bubbled...
Leave it where it is.

No.

 

[TwoBitTxn]

Regulation and management of wrecks
Policing and monitoring

I don't see how either one of these can be done. Even with the small number of peopel who have been discussing this thread there is a wide range of opinions.

Some feel it is a genuine ethics issue. Some don't. Which wrecks do you protect and why. You can't set definite criteria, because two wrecks can fit the same criteria and one won't be protected.

Policeing? The cavers are supposed to be a self policing group and people still die in caves. For the most part they do a great job of self regulation, but we will always have people who will do what they want because they feel its their right to do so.

I agree that education is the best we can do. IMHO its a matter of respect for the wreck, and scuba diving.

TwoBit

 

[TCDiver1]

Louie once bubbled...

Education - for divers and non-divers
Regulation and management of wrecks
Policing and monitoring

Reality check everyone, WW is right, only education is realistic. I have a real world example for you that happened in our neck of the woods.

Background info: in the great lakes we have hundreds of acres of "underwater preserves", that is, anything on the bottom of these preserves is protected by law and is not legal to even touch.

Segue to the Manitou preserve in lake Michigan. About six years ago we had an especially rough winter season. A large sandbar off one of the Manitou islands was erroded away. In it's place was found a previously uncharted wreck named the "Three Brothers". Nothing special as wrecks go but it was new and had many good 18 hundreds era artifacts scattered about and on the deck. This wreck is less than 50' off-shore, started in about 15' of water down to about 55' of water. It is easily accessible from the island but the island, which is smack-dab in the middle of the preserve, is quite a distance from the mainland and therefore only accessible by boat.

I was lucky enough to dive it several weeks after is was discovered and saw a lot of artifacts. A month later most of those artifacts were gone.

This wreck was managed and regulated by the underwater preserve already established. It didn't change a thing.

This wreck was policed and monitored. In fact, it doesn't get any better than this. There is a staffed ranger station, complete with boat right on the island, not a half a mile away from the wreck. It didn't make a difference.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Many of us who have been diving for years originally got into diving to recover artifacts from underwater. It's the way it was, totally acceptable and a normal reason to dive. Bottom-land conservation is a relatively new thing in our area, gaining steam in the last ten or fifteen years.

I'm not condoning wholesale stripping of wrecks, quite the opposite, i agree with and follow the laws of the underwater preserves but would like to point out there are extremes on both sides.

Case in point the Neo-nazi conservation officer who tried to ticket a friend for picking up a bottle from an inland lake which was not part of any underwater preserve. Thank gawd a reasonable state police officer happened by and talked the CO out of the ticket. The CO really wanted to haul my buddy in to jail for picking up this bottle which by the way was trash with no significant age value whatsoever. I'm not sure but i don't think Mickeys Malt Liquor was around in the 18 hundreds ........lol!

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get more than you desire.