DIR- Generic Drifting deco - when to shoot bag?

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What are your thoughts on shooting bags after let's say a wreck dive at technical depths with a drifting deco?

I often see posters here, especially from the UK wreck scene, discussing shooting bags at depth from a wreck in current, to immediately let boat captain know you're starting a drifting ascent. Is this a UK thing? Is it also common in the US?

I'm GUE trained and have been taught to only use spools for SMBs and to shoot the bag after the gas switch on a deco ascent, with the following reasoning:

  • Don't waste time at depth
Being deep obviously racks up more deco, uses more gas resources, and it's a priority to get to the gas switch quickly after terminating the dive, to start off-gassing

  • Spooling in a bag slows your ascent
Again, get to the gas switch quickly. It's hard to keep a proper ascent speed while spooling.

  • A bag makes you drift more
An SMB adds drag and makes you drift further than a quick ascent without a bag. This is compounded by the previous point.
  • Avoid complications at depth
This was not mentioned by my instructor, but is a consideration I have made myself. Shooting a bag takes time and has a non-zero risk. Keep it simple.
  • It is unnecessary
You shouldn't take long to get to the gas switch, so you won't drift too far, and a good boat captain would know where to expect a bag. Once the gas switch is done and you will spend significant time drifting on deco, you of course need a bag for the captain to follow, but if they can't deal with waiting until the gas switch for a bag, get a better boat captain.

My questions:
- Do you agree with this reasoning?
- Other points to consider?
- Are there specific scenarios where you would deviate?
- Is this common? Is it hard to find boat captains that would agree to this protocol? I would hardly want to deviate from a boat captain's instructions.
I think the correct answer (bottom or deco) is determined by two primary environmental factors, which are current velocity and sea state.

In reality, launching an smb from deep (for me that would be over maybe 150 ft) is actually easier than a shallow deployment and it is probably safer too. I generally use a 5-6 ft tall smb, not a lift bag or something ridiculous. When deep, you don't need to add much air, since the expansion of the gas will inflate the bag before the surface. I think that entanglement with an inflated SMB at depth is a considerable risk; it is not that likely (hopefully) but the consequences could literally be fatal (i.e., explosive decompression).

Since the stakes are kinda high here, I much prefer a situation from which I can recover from my own personal error. For example if I am 160 feet, I probably only need 10 lbs of lift worth of air in the bag at depth - a little more than a gallon. If I release and get entangled, chances are I can exhale, dump air from the BC and completely stop the ascent, grab the bag/smb, pull it down, dump it and sort out the tangle. Even if I am slow on the recovery, at considerable depth, the air in the bag is NOT going to expand quickly -in fact, the expansion in 10-15 feet, is more or less negligible. Worse case, I have time to use a knife and just cut the line and allow it to go up without me.

If you wait until you are at 30-40 feet, you probably need to put a lot more than a gallon of air in the bag and if you screw up and get tangled with it, there is a much better chance you are going for a very quick ride as the larger volume of air in the bag expands much, much quicker. This type of accident might be unrecoverable.

Perhaps I am paranoid, but I have gotten caught in a lift bag (not an smb) in 60ft and did take a quick ride to the surface, dragged by an improperly secured octopus, if I remember correctly.

So this factor alone points me in the direction of minimal inflation facilitated by a deep launch.

However, as already mentioned, the two primary factors are current and sea state. If there is a strong current like 2-3 kts, the captain has to idle into the current (and the wind) in order to hold position over, say the wreck. If the bag does not come up near the wreck, he may not see it and if there is a 4 kt current, if he is looking the wrong way for 60 seconds and the sea state is a little bumpy, then the smb and diver will very quickly be out of sight as they move down current. If the diver is delayed (or ascends early) for ANY reason at all, then the captain is further handicapped because he may not know exactly when the smb should arrive on the surface and he does not know precisely when he should stop looking for the smb to arise near the expected location and begin the search down current. In other words, if you deploy deep, then the capt should always know where the bag will come up, he just might not know when.

This is a huge problem and is compounded, if there are more than one team in the water, one may come up early and one may come up late and they can be spread out over a distance that exceeds easy visibility. This is a crappy situation, makes driving the boat a lot less fun and it can very easily result in lost divers who may be left drifting for miles until they are found.

If there is zero current and the diver were able to ascend vertically over the agreed upon location, then the smb CAN be launched shallow and it will appear on the surface where the capt. expects it to be. Regardless of whether the deployment is early or late and/or deep or shallow, the smb will appear exactly where the capt is expecting it to be.

Perhaps for additional clarification, if the diver drifts for 7-10 minutes in a screaming current and then deploys the smb when he reaches deco depth, he could be half a mile or more from the dive site.

Also, the argument that deploying the smb (on a reel) delays the ascent is a bunch of nonsense. It is not a big deal to ascend while deploying and filling the lift bag. It can be a distraction, but the process should only require about 30 seconds of the divers attention, and if you have a skilled buddy team... the two divers can discuss who will deploy and task the other diver with staying close and setting the pace of the ascent (what else does he have to do anyway)?

If you do that, it is very easy to just stay with your buddy while you fiddle with the smb and reel and inflation... and you never have to look at gauges, or the bottom or focus on particles in the water column to make sure you are not sinking or floating up while doing the 30-second deployment. If you are deep, the bc air does not expand that quick anyway, so you should not be unstable with respect to buoyancy, even if you lose focus for a few moments.

Also, being being dragged further downstream during the ascent because of the deep deployment of the smb, is not an issue .. as long as the captain sees it hit the surface and knows to follow it. Drifting off for an unknown period with no smb over your head (being invisible) is worse, not better, in terms of being picked up by the boat.
 
I agree, which is partly why I made this thread. If you don't agree with the captain's rules, suck it up or don't dive.

UK rules seem to be:
  • Skipper puts a shot on the wreck, divers descend along a shot line at slack time, generally stacked based on planned runtimes.
  • Ascent back on the shotline only in an emergency or unless agreed. The current is usually too strong.
  • For dives with short deco, deploy DSMB off the bottom or whenever, one bag per team.
  • For dives between 40-50ish meters, one DSMB deployed from the bottom per diver. Skipper pulls the shot once there are as many bags as there are divers, boat drifts together with all the DSMBs.
  • Deeper dives: lazy shot with a deco station, attached to the descent line. Divers tag in on descent, tag out on ascent, last diver up disconnects the lazy shot so that everyone can drift & deco together at the station. DSMB deployed only in an emergency, preferably as soon as possible.

Can you do that with a spool? I imagine a reel would be faster, but personally I think it might slow me down on a spool - at least at my current skill level.
That’s why I carry a reel a keep a backup DSMB in my pocket with a shorter line. Ascent with a spool from the bottom is pretty taskloaded. It’s a contentious issue.
 
So our protocol for drift diving a deep wreck in a screaming current is as follows:

  • Try to give the captain a good estimate of when the smb should appear.
  • We often drop a diver 0.1 (or more) miles upstream of the wreck.
  • The divers swim down ASAP, try to hit the wreck, if they feel like they missed it, then they deploy the smb ASAP and hopefully it is not too far down stream from the wreck to be seen.
  • The capt can try to sit on top of the bubbles after the divers go in and follow them toward the wreck, and he MIGHT be able to see that they missed the wreck if the bubbles continue off down current of the target. In any regard the capt has to be super vigilant right after the drop, to see any divers who miss target or bail on the dive for any reason.
  • Later, the capt can sit close to the wreck and MAY be able to see bubbles arising in the vicinity, this provides reassurance that the divers actually hit the target and are diving as expected (in other words, not drifting away unobserved for the next 20-30 minutes). The depth recorder should also show the divers on the wreck as well.
  • When the planned time has been reached, the divers deploy their smb deep, from the wreck or as close to it as practical, and drift and hang on.
  • If the bottom current is very light and the top is screaming 3-4 kts, then when the bag hits the surface, the diver should continue to let line out of the reel and to ascend as quickly as safely possible. When the reel reaches the end of the line (or line deployment is stopped) then the diver will be getting yanked through the water.
  • The diver will be pulled downstream and the buddy may have to give chase and/or grab the line or reel and get pulled along as well.
  • Adjusting buoyancy while getting yanked down current and also up (due to the angle of the line) takes a bit of finesse. However, as the diver ascends, the disparity in the current velocity dissipates, and the effect is reduced.
  • For us, once the diver is up around 100 or 70 feet, the current velocity is pretty uniform, the pulling is slight and then all the hundreds of feet of excess line can begin to be retrieved (which is a pain when deep, I admit).
  • As for the capt. If he waits on the wreck for another 5 minutes (past the agreed upon time) and the smb has not appeared, then he needs to begin considering that the divers ascended early and/or they came up and he missed them. Then he has to start considering his options to leave the wreck and start searching down current from the wreck.
  • If he has a good estimate of the current speed and is diligent about keeping track of total elapsed time since the divers entered the water, then he has some parameters to formulate his ever expanding search area. Generally, in this unfortunate situation, I would eventually run the boat down stream the furthest distance I think the divers could be (say they missed the wreck and I didn't notice or they had an emergency and ascended without an smb) upon the initial descent, and then look back up current for them.
  • It is not a full proof system, I have been picked up miles from the wreck several times, twice by seatow and a couple times by private boats, when the captain has called an emergency for lost diver. The capt also needs to know when to stop search alone and when to call out for help in locating the drifting diver.
 
In California we typically send up an SMB as we're leaving the bottom and kind of ride it up to the first deep deco stop. This isn't absolutely necessary but it makes it easier for the boat crew to track the team during a drifting deco. If you pull the SMB out of your pocket and get it ready to go a couple minutes before the end of your planned bottom time then it doesn't slow the team down at all. You might drift slightly farther if there are strong surface currents or winds but the difference is marginal and as long as the boat crew is tracking you it doesn't matter.
 
Thanks for all the thoughtful answers and perspectives, and a very civil tone. This is SB at its best.

I had a feeling this was one of the topics that required more nuance than I had been presented in my class, but then again I understand that not everything can be covered in every class, and that some nuance will always be lost. Also local wrecks are in somewhat protected coastal waters, so the danger of drifting to sea is not there.

I have gotten a lot of food for thought, and I think an important point is to listen to experts with local knowledge which often will be the boat captains. It's also good to know what's common in different places, as I definitely hope to do some UK wreck diving at some point.
 
The scuba industry has got to be one of the dumbest universes ever.

Number of survival suits made in high visibility black? 0
Number of PFDs made in high visibility black? 0
Number of survival rafts made in high visibility black? 0
Number of reflective vests for highway workers made in high visibility black? 0
Number of rescue helicopters made in high visibility black? 0
Number of coast guard rescue RIBs made in high visibility black? 0
ANY rescue or OSHA approved high vis product made in "high visibility" black? 0

Scuba SMBs in black? YUS!!! More cooler!!!

Its for those stealth covert dives where you don't actually want the boat to see you and you want to drift away and be lost at sea. :rofl3::rofl3:
 
For Pompano Beach/Florida-style drift diving you should shoot a bag from the bottom while you're still on the wreck so that captain/boat can easily follow and keep track of you. You absolutely want to give the boat ample notice and time to spot you. If you wait until you get to your first deco stop it's very possible you will have drifted out of the visibility of the boat/captain. It is seriously not uncommon to have drifted miles for longer deco. Getting a bag up before leaving the wreck is crucial for drifting deco.

In many cases we've communicated to the captain how many people/teams will shoot bags and when to expect to see bags. The captain is expecting to see X number of bags on the surface in say 35 minutes or some other agreed upon time.

A finger spool is the wrong tool here too, at least for the type of diving that I am doing. Pompano Beach drift dives in the 150-300' (~45-90m) range, we typically use a 400' reel. If there is strong current even a 200' reel may not have enough scope. I'd have no issues using a finger spool for recreational depths (30m) but honestly a reel is better approach.

It's very fast to get a bag/SMB up and I would argue more important than waiting until your first deco stop. You need to communicate with the surface. I will quite literally ride a bag up until I get close to my first deco stop but that's another discussion for another day and definitely not DIR. :)

I realize other parts of the world may have different procedures so your mileage (kilometers?) may vary. I remember shooting bags from the wrecks in Scapa (UK) too but I don't recall encountering much current or drifting very far.

At least for me, the same logic applies in New England/Northeast wreck diving. I want to get a bag up while I am still on the wreck. Fog could roll in and obscure visibility and by the time I've gotten to my deco stops I could have drifted many miles with the boat unaware. We try to avoid drifting deco in New England so seeing a bag usually means someone is lost on the wreck or has an issue.

It all comes down to is what the captain/crew want you to do. I realize different parts of the world may have different methods and I'm sure they work equally well but in areas with strong current where I could be drifting for miles in heavy seas in reduced visibility I would say you should shoot a bag from the bottom.
 

Black is more visible in hazy, foggy conditions than other colors. It's a popular color chosen by divers off the English coast.






Mind you, I’m not getting one. I carry two neon yellow DSMBs, one of which is 10 feet tall, air horn, whistle, strobe, dye marker, mirror, two torches, and a PLB… but apparently there are arguments for black SMBs.


At least, as a white elephant gift….
 
UK thing: one bag per diver. Skipper gets shouty if one bag per "team".

Reason being that visibility and conditions mean diving solo is quite normal. Skipper wants to count bags before following the field of blobs downstream.

There's some sorting where people doing the longest bottom times will go in first.


Small point about reels vs. spools. They both work very well. A heavier reel is quite useful if there's wave action knocking your buoyancy off especially on CCR. The heavy reel acts as a weight which can be used to pull yourself down without resorting to finning or dumping gas. In bouncing waves, spools can come undone and plummet to the seabed; ratchet reels don't suffer from that. Also spools can be awkward to clip together with the SMB on the surface (thick gloves, waves, time pressure... all whilst trying to feed a loop through the spool)
 
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http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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